Mark Mitchell: "Why would they come back to the rink?"

[ZilphaK]

Many of the style-based events for both the Summer and Winter X Games certainly took that potential disconnect into consideration, and have kept their scoring methodology to rather simplified "out of 100", this despite that fact that these X-Games events have just as a wide array of technical elements as skating does.

In addition, X-Games audiences tend to have a more casual disposition when in comes to competition, and are more interested in seeing the "risk" and the "innovation" of the moves than the actual order of result. There will not be a 1000 post thread if, say Chloe Kim "loses/wuzrobbed" the snowboard halfpipe gold medal in Pyeongchang.

I was thinking about this. Is there an artistic (or comparable) score in these events? I think that's where the bugaboo is for a lot of people. No one is trying to time their 720 to Ewan McGregor howling through the Moulin Rouge soundtrack. Or maybe they are and I just had the sound turned down.

 

[Aceon6]

Thanks for all the posts @Jozet For the most part, I agree with everything you said.

I come to my figure skating with a basic understanding of the physics of the sport. I now see those same principles in freestyle skiing and boarding and have been looking at both sports and how they’re judged.

In freestyle, you HAVE to land the trick. You get next to nada for sitting on your butt despite how hard or how beautiful the trick is. I think GOE needs to expand to make it possible to get a 0 or even lose points on a failed jump. To the casual audience, failing on a jump then getting 6+ points for it just doesn’t make sense.

Freestyle rewards amplitude. Again, if GOE was expanded, it might be possible for that HUGE triple lutz that had the audience roaring to get many more points than the base value of the quad.

Freestyle rewards speed and flow between tricks. Instead of burying the speed score in PCS, there needs to be a way to call it out and make it count much more than it does now.

I understand that replays are necessary to confirm elements, but I think they could do away with < completely. Either it’s around enough to be a quad or triple or it’s not, similar to the way they count revs in half pipe. That way, a casual fan wouldn’t be as befuddled with the score of what they saw as a clean skate.

I think the ISU could learn a lot from the freestyle folks!

 

[rfisher]

My feedback was pretty much the same as yours.
People wanted to know why Starr and Ma weren't the winners.

Those who do watch skating on occasion were not at all impressed with Wagner's skate apart from the press trying to make it into a scandal. They weren't impressed with the other two either. See Starr.

They could care less about the men as figure skating is only about girls unless the men are skating to something that relates like a dance video, i.e., Jimmy Ma. And by dance they mean hip hop or rap. Adam vs Ross: no scandal at all. Both stayed on their feet. Or they do big tricks. Nathan and Vincent.

Dance, no matter how much it's promoted is not the least bit interesting because they're no big tricks, plus nobody can tell the difference between one team and another.

The blobs are meaningless. (actually the tracker used in the GPF was brilliant as it listed the element by name and gave the points for that element).

The tide has turned against Tara and Johnny. Number one complaint by people who know I'm a fan and came to tell me their opinion of the broadcast.

 

[BlueRidge]

Minority report: I'd rather see figure skating withdraw from the Olympics and emphasize more the artistry than attempt to be more like other winter Olympic sports.

 

[Aceon6]

And one more thing... in freestyle, you get as many tricks as you can fit in the run. I’d do away with the invalid elements/jump limits in both the short and long if the skater fell on the first attempt. Fall, get a 0 or - score and it doesn’t count towards your repeat jumps or jumping passes. Got time to try to get those points back? Go for it.

 

[VGThuy]

I remember when the TES tracker and blobs were first introduced. I don't know how much it helped in terms of really educating non-skating fans, but the non-fans I watched it finally got it into their heads that the programs were not improvised and that there was some sort of standard template every skater followed (not that IJS requirements hadn't made that obvious already) and were pretty amazed about how "put together" the sport was. Prior, they thought skaters just did whatever they wanted to and judges came up with results out of thin air based on their preferences. I mean they're not exactly wrong there, but there is a standard.

 

[rfisher]

When surfing enters the summer Olympics, the judging is very similar to boarding or freestyle. Big tricks win the day. And there is very much an artistic element to freestyle or boarding. There is an elegance of movement--the little extra embellishments. They just don't do it to music and frankly most skaters don't either.

 

[ZilphaK]

My feedback was pretty much the same as yours.
People wanted to know why Starr and Ma weren't the winners.

Those who do watch skating on occasion were not at all impressed with Wagner's skate apart from the press trying to make it into a scandal. They weren't impressed with the other two either. See Starr.

They could care less about the men as figure skating is only about girls unless the men are skating to something that relates like a dance video, i.e., Jimmy Ma. And by dance they mean hip hop or rap. Adam vs Ross: no scandal at all. Both stayed on their feet. Or they do big tricks. Nathan and Vincent.

Dance, no matter how much it's promoted is not the least bit interesting because they're no big tricks, plus nobody can tell the difference between one team and another.

The blobs are meaningless. (actually the tracker used in the GPF was brilliant as it listed the element by name and gave the points for that element).

The tide has turned against Tara and Johnny. Number one complaint by people who know I'm a fan and came to tell me their opinion of the broadcast.

I was surprised at how music played with casual viewers. Everyone noticed that Moulin Rouge was overused. A few people were reminded that they liked the movie -- from waaaaaaaay back when in the early 2000s -- but more seemed to think it was throwback corny.

Whitney is "badass," as is singing your own program music, which also is a "baller move." Starr skating to Whitney left viewers "shooked." Hip hop, "YASSS," but also Queen got a huge "NO WAY" (in a good way), as did Hamilton, which was "lit" and "gave life," often at the same time.

Surprisingly, West Side Story was "fire" for many, possibly even "savage."

 

[rfisher]

I was surprised at how music played with casual viewers. Everyone noticed that Moulin Rouge was overused. A few people were reminded that they liked the movie -- from waaaaaaaay back when in the early 2000s -- but more seemed to think it was throwback corny.

Whitney is "badass," as is singing your own program music, which also is a "baller move." Starr skating to Whitney left viewers "shooked." Hip hop, "YASSS," but also Queen got a huge "NO WAY" (in a good way), as did Hamilton, which was "lit" and "gave life," often at the same time.

Surprisingly, West Side Story was "fire" for many, possibly even "savage."

WSS is fire. Those sharks and jets were the epitome of bad boys.

 

[VGThuy]

Surprisingly, West Side Story was "fire" for many, possibly even "savage."

OMG, I was surprised at how much people ended up really enjoying Mariah Bell and West Side Story considering how that program and her skating in general is received here.

 

[rfisher]

But, all the interest there was evaporated when I was asked which one of the US skaters was going to win a gold medal at the Olympics and I said, ummm....possibly, you never know, hmmmm...

 

[VGThuy]

But, all the interest there was evaporated when I was asked which one of the US skaters was going to win a gold medal at the Olympics and I said, ummm....possibly, you never know, hmmmm...

Not many people I know actually Bradie's skating, but I'm sure they will like the fact that she lands her jumps and does her job for Team USA...if she skates up to her abilities in Pyeongchang. When it comes to victories, people ignore artistry and personality to an extent and like the results although if you have both, that leads to being known outside the context of the Olympics.

 

[rfisher]

Not many people I know actually Bradie's skating, but I'm sure they will like the fact that she lands her jumps and does her job for Team USA...if she skates up to her abilities in Pyeongchang. When it comes to victories, people ignore artistry and personality to an extent and like the results although if you have both, that leads to being known outside the context of the Olympics.

Well, I did have one person ask if Mirai was Michelle Kwan.

 

[Seerek]

I was surprised at how music played with casual viewers.

Because music is so much more an individualized cultural experience in the post-Napster era (compared to a shared experience via the radio/concerts/etc. in the 6.0 era), music program selection is now the #1 "turn-off/tune-out" dimension for casual viewers way more than costumes. In other words, casual viewer instantly concludes: "hate the music = the program sucks and shouldn't win".

On the balance, there was far more positive social media feedback of the Dressage Equestrian music choices in Rio compared to skating in Sochi.

 

[icie]

Sadly Angela had the accident and then death of her Mom en route to the rink at Nats... sigh......

Back in the day, Angela's mom was a very active poster on RSSIF.

 

[Cleo1782]

Here is the thing about Mark Mitchell. I have no problems with his comments. He has a right to his feelings and I am sure he is fiercely loyal to his students and was disappointed for Ross. Was a little dramatic? Yes, but I highly doubt he will quit coaching.
Let's look at the facts-
In 1992, Mark was 3rd. Yes, he should have beat Paul Wylie probably, but Paul did have a lot going for him and it worked out. I am pretty certain every men's competitor that night knew the 3rd person was going to get bumped for 2 time national champion and world bronze medalist Todd Eldredge. Was he really shocked and outraged after they named the team?
in 2008 Katrina Hacker was 6th without a full set of triples. She didn't medal and was left off the team. They had to go down multiple spots to find age eligible women and chose the 7th place finisher former Olympian and World Champion (who also won a GP event and made the GPF that season) Kimmie Meissner, who although on the decline was still our highest finisher at worlds that year and certainly placed higher than Hacker would have.
This year, I do think Ross was robbed, but certainly not horribly (of the 1st alternate spot, yes). I probably would have dumped Zhou over Ross, but I get it. So yes, it was rough for Mark and I feel bad, but I don't think any circumstance was blatant bias against him or his skaters.

 

[Clay]

Well, I did have one person ask if Mirai was Michelle Kwan.

I had one person ask me if Ashley Wagner was upset backstage because she had been disqualified. I had to explain she was just upset at her scores.

 

[Prancer]

5. People just don't consider skating a sport. It's a "feminine" pursuit (which much could be said about that), but part of that "feminine" characterization comes, I think, with the subjective scoring on artistic components. And only figure skating wonks are going to ever take the time to try to understand PCS scores. With new fans, they go by the gut feeling, and it can't be discounted how much that counts for -- people may not understand edge calls and footwork, but they know what they like and when they feel moved. Ross, Starr, Bradie, Jimmy Ma -- they killed it with casual viewers. It's something to think about for the future, I suppose. How to let the artistry "count" more in scoring so it's in line with the gut reaction of the audience. That would make outcomes more understandable, to everyone, I think, without a term-paper's worth of explanation.

But how would it make it more of a sport? Or do people think it should just be like ballet--an artistic endeavor with a strong athletic component?

I have a hard time with the idea that figure skating needs to change because people think the judging is confusing. I don't watch football very often and have no idea what's going on most of the time. The only reason that's not an issue is that a lot of people are fans of football (or played themselves) and so have taken the time to learn, which I haven't done. Isn't that on me?

 

[Willin]

I was surprised at how music played with casual viewers. Everyone noticed that Moulin Rouge was overused. A few people were reminded that they liked the movie -- from waaaaaaaay back when in the early 2000s -- but more seemed to think it was throwback corny.

Whitney is "badass," as is singing your own program music, which also is a "baller move." Starr skating to Whitney left viewers "shooked." Hip hop, "YASSS," but also Queen got a huge "NO WAY" (in a good way), as did Hamilton, which was "lit" and "gave life," often at the same time.

Surprisingly, West Side Story was "fire" for many, possibly even "savage."

Honestly, if skaters just skated to better music I think skating would be so much more popular - just look at how Starr and Jimmy were received, and they're not even the top contenders. Lin Manuel Miranda tweeted about Jason as well.

That's one of my biggest problems with a lot of the Russian/Japanese skaters (and Russia's synchro teams) - stop skating to boring, overused music and start skating to something fun! I loved watching the dance teams in particular get outside of their comfort zone for the hip hop section of their short dances.

 

[ZilphaK]

But how would it make it more of a sport? Or do people think it should just be like ballet--an artistic endeavor with a strong athletic component?

I have a hard time with the idea that figure skating needs to change because people think the judging is confusing. I don't watch football very often and have no idea what's going on most of the time. The only reason that's not an issue is that a lot of people are fans of football (or played themselves) and so have taken the time to learn, which I haven't done. Isn't that on me?

I just recently and quickly became a die-hard hockey fan. There are some intricacies of the sport, for sure, but it's pretty simple: Puck goes in net = 1 point. Ref makes a bad call and throws your guy in the penalty box, the crowd boos and may throw a catfish on the ice. You high stick another guy on purpose, and you get smacked around the next time you're on the ice. It's sort of refreshing, in a way, in its simplicity. At the same time, I find it to be very artistic in a "beautiful game" kind of way, although no one gets points for that except Sidney Crosby.

I don't watch football often, but again, the point system is pretty simple and there are a few ref calls for holding, or jumping the gun (or whatever). I can get the gist pretty quickly. It's not often touchdowns are called back, and when they are and I ask, I usually just get a grunt from my husband about the blah-blah rule. But the number of blah-blah rules aren't so numerous or complicated that I haven't heard it before or don't get the gist.

I don't want figure skating to become a beauty pageant, not by a long shot. But I've been in enough rooms where judges or coaches and even tech specialists have been scratching their heads over the spin call or arguing over what makes a passing loop in MIF -- I had two judges get in an argument once over my daughter's step sequence during a critique, and one judge was telling the other that she was judging by some older/outdated standard, and there were amusing death stares back and forth. I LOVE figure skating and am a rulebook nerd, and I still have to go back and check exactly why something was given a certain downgrade (especially with spins...oye.)

I don't know what the answer is. Maybe there isn't. But there are enough people "in the know" who are saying "this isn't sitting right" over the Ross thing, that if there's any time to dig in and look/wonder/examine what could be changed, this is again (sigh!) one of those times.

 

[Seerek]

Honestly, if skaters just skated to better music I think skating would be so much more popular - just look at how Starr and Jimmy were received, and they're not even the top contenders. Lin Manuel Miranda tweeted about Jason as well.

That's one of my biggest problems with a lot of the Russian/Japanese skaters (and Russia's synchro teams) - stop skating to boring, overused music and start skating to something fun! I loved watching the dance teams in particular get outside of their comfort zone for the hip hop section of their short dances.

So essentially, you're saying "better" = new music, "boring, not fun" = old music?

I really don't care of the era of music in the least, nor whether it's a war horse or not. The underlying question is whether there are choreographers out there (skating or otherwise) who can handle a more diverse musical palette if desired by the skater(s) for a competitive program.

 

[Willin]

@Seerek I think old music can be fun - people certainly liked Davis/White's program - just that people tend not to utilize it in a fun or fresh way. With lots of music there tends to be putting in similar choreographic moves over and over. If you're using something like Carmen or Scheherazade there's a great opportunity to story tell, and yet few people do it - they put in generic choreography and assume it's good enough.
I think the difference is that in modern music there's a lot of opportunity to play with interesting rhythms or dance styles (ie. incorporating hip hop movements). And even if you can't come up with interesting choreographic movements, having it to modern music may engage younger fans or provide an opportunity for the fans to get engaged better than to classical music. Like, you can't clap along to Firebird, but if you did the same choreography to Queen or Muse the crowd would probably be clapping right along. For instance, Starr's choreography for both programs wasn't innovative, but because she skated to interesting music the crowd loved her. Would twitter have cared or fallen in love if she skated the 10th Nessun Dorma of the competition with the same choreography?

@Jozet I think the answer to calling turns is going back to figures (the width of loops is exactly the length of the skater's blade; it's length is the length of 1.5 of the skater's blade), but no one wants that. Literally no one. Imagine how long the scores would take!

Personally, I think the best solution (although no perfect one exists) is to have a set of supervisor judges that hold the other judges accountable for mistakes in real time, or during tests just to hold them accountable. Maybe require that all judges have reference sheets for what they are scoring/calling right at their stations so they have no excuse for a mistake. That's what they're starting to do with Dance judging (at least locally) - giving each judge a binder ring with the judging standards for each dance they are required to have on them as they judge competitions/tests. Of course the high level dance judges don't use them, but they at least have them.

 

[Geh]

For me, the best way to go for the USFSA is:

If 3 sport are available, the first and second places automaticallly goes to the Olympics, and the third place is determined also by the BOW.

If only two spots are available, only the first place is sure to go.

If only one spot is there, the champion automatically goes.

It’s only an idea!

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Back in the day, Angela's mom was a very active poster on RSSIF.

What is rssif???

 

[VALuvsMKwan]

What is rssif???

Usenet group rec.sport.skating.ice.figure popular a decade or more ago - a reference to it at this link

http://www.sporttaco.com/rec.sport.skating.ice.figure/rssif_time_to_call_the_undertaker_1900.html

 

[Aceon6]

I don't know what the answer is. Maybe there isn't. But there are enough people "in the know" who are saying "this isn't sitting right" over the Ross thing, that if there's any time to dig in and look/wonder/examine what could be changed, this is again (sigh!) one of those times.

Using hockey and football as inspiration for Os, Worlds and 4CCs spots, ala all-star teams.
1) Your season best scorer coming into Nationals gets a guanteed spot.
2) The next 4 highest scorers (possibly above a score floor) are pooled and the highest finisher at Nationals gets one.
3) The remaining podium at Nationals plus the 3 left from the #2 pool are grouped for a committee decision. Everyone from that group is guaranteed at least one of Worlds/4CCs.

I think that would be more transparent and easier for an IJS novice to swallow.

 

[briancoogaert]

I feel so bad for Mark Mitchell. Of course he is taking things for himself because of his own story.
But behind this, he is questionning the place of the Nationals into selections for the Olympics.
This really is a good question. You won't see that happening in Tennis for example. If you loose to someone (even someone better than you the whole season), you stay home for the next match.
It was a difficult decision, I think both Adam and Ross deserved a spot.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Some of y'all are being very harsh about what everyone had to know ahead of time. For the Olympic team, a silver medalist has never been dumped before the bronze medalist, and never for a non-medaling GP finalist. I agree with the committee's Olympic team decision (but not the alternates) but I could see how a former world team member like a Miner or Hochstein could have thought there was hope coming into nationals. Particularly hope for if a silver medal was earned.

It wasn't clear in 2014 that the choice was between Wagner and Nagasu or Edmunds and Nagasu. If Edmunds had been dropped, the outrage would have been higher then, aside from the people who thought it was a racist move to drop Nagasu, because the silver medalist had been dropped.

Actually, you don't EARN GP events at all. Federations can pick as they wish and often deliberately select skaters ranked lower so they are less competitive with their skaters. GP selection is entirely variable and they can pretty much do what they want. You might qualify for 2, but that doesn't mean you'll get 2 offers.

I don't know where you're getting this: individual skaters earn guaranteed a certain number of spots from the prior season's results, and the only way they don't get them is if their Federation doesn't submit their names for GP. (See Sandhu and Sokolova.) The host Feds can't bypass them unless:

• There are more guaranteed spots than total spots-total host spots (for non-guaranteed skaters), in which case, there isn't room for anyone down the list, either
• All 18 spots for the country are already taken, which, while mathematically possible, is highly unlikely, even among Russian Ladies

Top 12 (singles) or 10 (pairs/dance) at prior worlds are guaranteed two spots. It is mathematically impossible for them to not get all of their spots, since they are, at worst, selected after host spots, and there is a max of three from each country at Worlds, which leaves 54 spots for 24 singles from prior Worlds, 42 spots for 20 dance teams from prior Worlds, and 30 spots for 20 Pairs from Prior Worlds. There is a selection order based on groups of how they placed at prior Worlds: 1-3, 4-6, 7-9 (singles), 7-10 (pairs/dance), 10-12 (singles). The only way that an event doesn't have one from each group is if the host chooses two skaters from the same group, which has happened, but not even a handful of times in a decade or 2, and, in those cases, one host has two picks from 1-3 or 7-9 and the other has two picks from 4-6 or 10-12.

Then everyone who is age-eligible in the Top 24 SB but not guaranteed two for Worlds is selected for at least one. If none of the Top 10/12 at Worlds was in the Top 24 SB list, and every host picked three skaters/teams that were not guaranteed at least one spot, and every skater/team in the Top 24 SB list were age-eligible, it is mathematically impossible for Top 24 singles guaranteed one to not get one: there would be 6 spots left for those guaranteed 1 for Top 24 WS; in Dance, four teams in the Top 24 SB would be left off; in Pairs 14 teams would.

Not guaranteed are:

• Top 24 SB or Top 24 WS get their guaranteed one spot once 18 spots for their country have been assigned
• Top 24 SB or Top 24 WS get their guaranteed spot once all 72/60/48 are filled by host spots and other skaters guaranteed spots, ie, the only Skater SB 75 who can get a spot is a host skater.
• Top 24 SB and Top 24 WS get a second, which means once they get one spot, they can be bypassed by Skater SB 75.
• Top 24 SB and Top 24 WS getting alternate spots before Skater SB 75. This could mean if guaranteed spots ran out before all guaranteed could get one, they might not get alternate spots that opened up, but would be treated like any other skater/team on the alternates list without two.

 

[Seerek]

@Seerek I think old music can be fun - people certainly liked Davis/White's program - just that people tend not to utilize it in a fun or fresh way. With lots of music there tends to be putting in similar choreographic moves over and over. If you're using something like Carmen or Scheherazade there's a great opportunity to story tell, and yet few people do it - they put in generic choreography and assume it's good enough.

Yes, you hit the nail on the head my #1 frustration with war-horse utilization - the sequencing. Lots of opportunities missed especially considering these war horses are multi-movement/multi-act entities.

Usenet group rec.sport.skating.ice.figure popular a decade or more ago - a reference to it at this link

http://www.sporttaco.com/rec.sport.skating.ice.figure/rssif_time_to_call_the_undertaker_1900.html

For those of us old enough to remember (eek!), RSSIF certainly goes as far back as Lillehammer as far as Olympics go.

 

[mag]

It wasn't clear in 2014 that the choice was between Wagner and Nagasu or Edmunds and Nagasu. If Edmunds had been dropped, the outrage would have been higher then, aside from the people who thought it was a racist move to drop Nagasu, because the silver medalist had been dropped.

And this is a problem. Accountability is only possible when people have information. It should have been made clear at the time what was under consideration. I agree with whoever up thread posted that it really should only be the last spot which is subject to BOW, and really only if the other skater in the comparison has a legitimate shot at the podium. JMHO