U.S. Ladies [#20]: In a Week, Maybe Two, They'll Make You a Star

[vesperholly]

I think Ashley’s problem has always been that she’s too hungry when it comes to the Olympics. This is the 3rd time she’s finished one spot too low.

I would agree with that in 2010 and 2014, but this year I think she was over it all. She's already been to the big show and got a team medal.

 

[Vagabond]

The Olympics, weirdly, seem to bring out Mirai’s best.

The Olympics have a way of doing that for certain skaters. Sarah Hughes, Paul Wylie, and Adelina Sotnikova are three other obvious examples.

Ross Miner might be one too, if given the chance.

 

[mag]

I think the learning to work through errors is a BIG part of being a consistent and successful skater. Learning to forgive yourself and just get on with the next thing both in practice and in competition is so important yet so difficult. Figure skating, at the the elite level, is filled with perfectionists and working for perfection is also so important (getting your spin levels, making each turn in footwork clean) it is no wonder with that contradiction that this is a crazy sport!

 

[edwina]

I don't follow TSL because Dave makes my teeth hurt. They have actual PROOF she was "dumped" because of SA?

Dave said "the people that we talked to and we talked to a lot of judges, none of them bought it at Skate America. We talked to people at the panel, they thought it was more drama than substance." Don't know why he would make that up. Also don't think tsl is trash, to me they just call people out on their BS and all people in the planet are full of BS sometimes. No need to sugarcoat everything. Don't know what actually happened in this case & doesn't matter anymore but in general I think it's understandable for an athlete to exaggarate an injury a little bit, for example if they believe it will get them to the Olympics (if they believe placing low in a competition is more detrimental than withdrawing dramatically).

So they didn't say "dumped because of SA", more like usfsa were already iffy.

 

[Xela M]

The Olympics have a way of doing that for certain skaters. Sarah Hughes, Paul Wylie, and Adelina Sotnikova are three other obvious examples.

Ross Miner might be one too, if given the chance.

Urmanov and Baiul

 

[olympic]

I'm heartbroken for Ashley, but if I am completely honest... it's absolutely her own fault. She became too complacent. She just wasn't as hungry as the other girls on the day

She played musical chairs with her programs and it cost her. The status of her LLL program was what I'd expect from an elite skater in say October, not January.

 

[Wyliefan]

Dave said "the people that we talked to and we talked to a lot of judges, none of them bought it at Skate America. We talked to people at the panel, they thought it was more drama than substance."

Well, if anyone should know drama, it's TSL. Wonder if they've cried in any bathrooms lately.

 

[analia]

I for one fail to see why Wagner's PCS should be higher than any one of the top 3. In the past I think her PCS was boosted up internationally for one of the two reasons, that she was an older skater skating between 16 year old babies which made her look more mature, or that she was assumed to be American No.1. She is no longer either now that Medvedeva, Miyahara among others are all a bit older and she is definitely not American No.1 anymore. I've seen Wagner (and for that matter Adam Rippon) skate live more than once and frankly their "performance" is more facial expression than real skating. Adelina's half cooked hip hip chin chin was miles better than any version of Wagner's.
Plus I assume USFSA has already taken their cut from Wagner's sponsors. It isn't like she is in any position medaling at the Olympics.

 

[NoStefaniaNo]

Well, if anyone should know drama, it's TSL. Wonder if they've cried in any bathrooms lately.

I googled this and found one mysterious tweet. I need to hear more about this.

ETA: Never mind. I found a thread on here. I avoid reading TSL so I missed this drama.

 

[Sylvia]

Maybe someone could find/bump up the TSL thread in the Trash Can and go discuss it in there?

 

[Wyliefan]

Start here, @NoStefaniaNo:

https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/the-skating-lesson.101653/page-10#post-5189421

 

[Carolla5501]

Dave said "the people that we talked to and we talked to a lot of judges, none of them bought it at Skate America. We talked to people at the panel, they thought it was more drama than substance." Don't know why he would make that up. Also don't think tsl is trash, to me they just call people out on their BS and all people in the planet are full of BS sometimes. No need to sugarcoat everything. Don't know what actually happened in this case & doesn't matter anymore but in general I think it's understandable for an athlete to exaggarate an injury a little bit, for example if they believe it will get them to the Olympics (if they believe placing low in a competition is more detrimental than withdrawing dramatically).

So they didn't say "dumped because of SA", more like usfsa were already iffy.

Why would he make it up? Because if he said "no one will actually talk to me so I make up stories to get you to listen" you might wake up and realize what he's doing?

The truth is he doesn't have a lot of respect from the people he claims to have talked to because he takes what they say, twists it out of context and uses it just to make himself look important


He's the biggest BS spreader out there. Too bad you keep falling for it

 

[edwina]

Why would he make it up? Because if he said "no one will actually talk to me so I make up stories to get you to listen" you might wake up and realize what he's doing?

The truth is he doesn't have a lot of respect from the people he claims to have talked to because he takes what they say, twists it out of context and uses it just to make himself look important


He's the biggest BS spreader out there. Too bad you keep falling for it

Yep, that can of course be true too. Hard to know when no one he talks about disputes what he says, at least in public.

 

[Willin]

I for one fail to see why Wagner's PCS should be higher than any one of the top 3. In the past I think her PCS was boosted up internationally for one of the two reasons, that she was an older skater skating between 16 year old babies which made her look more mature, or that she was assumed to be American No.1. She is no longer either now that Medvedeva, Miyahara among others are all a bit older and she is definitely not American No.1 anymore. I've seen Wagner (and for that matter Adam Rippon) skate live more than once and frankly their "performance" is more facial expression than real skating. Adelina's half cooked hip hip chin chin was miles better than any version of Wagner's.
Plus I assume USFSA has already taken their cut from Wagner's sponsors. It isn't like she is in any position medaling at the Olympics.

Hahaha no - Adelina's hip hip chin chin was not better. But that's subjective.

It wasn't just making her look more mature - she was more mature. Look at their facial expressions vs her own, or the purposefulness of her movements vs. their's. No, her programs aren't as difficult and her transitions are lacking, but certainly she's a very mature performer in comparison to them. Listen to commentary in pretty much every language - they all agree on that. (Even the Russian commentators apparently love her for that aspect of her skating)

Based on her interview on the Today show, it seems she recognized that the PCS were probably more correct than what she'd received in the past. It was more that she was confused as to why now - why at this competition - they had decided to correct that even though international judges to some extent were still giving her the benefit of the doubt.

 

[vesperholly]

When did Sotnikova skate to Hip Hip, Chin Chin??

 

[Sylvia]

"10 Things To Know About Bradie Tennell, Olympic Figure Skating Surprise" (Jan. 11, 2018): http://www.cosmopolitan.com/entertainment/celebs/a14771892/bradie-tennell-ice-skater-olympics/

 

[Coco]

I see it as two clearly separate issues:

1) what should her PCS actually be, and
2) how fair is it to abruptly recalibrate a skater's PCS relative to their competitors (and vice versa) without explicit warning

#1 is a fair question. #2, well, I would say it is unfair to abruptly recalibrate someone's PCS unless their skating has noticeably changed. I didn't see any noticeable changes in her programs or her delivery of them from her previous efforts. Where they wrong in the past twelve months and right at Nationals? If so, why did all those judges get it wrong so frequently? Were they incompetent or deliberately inflating her marks? What about Karen's? You can't think too long and hard about Wagner's and Chen's PCS in the context of the past 12 months without drawing conclusions about a lack of integrity in how components are applied.

The way the judging went down in the ladies freeskate makes it appear like components are only loosely based in reality and firmly driven by judges concerns about off ice issues like potential, trajectory, etc.

 

[Tinami Amori]

When did Sotnikova skate to Hip Hip, Chin Chin??

Sotnikova skated a Latin Beat programme SP in 2015 at Russian Nationals and Moscow GP. The end of it had a Samba section with the same beat and rhythm as HHCC, but without words, and with another instrument overlay. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUsT45t-8zM

 

[aftershocks]

IMO, it's too much of a coincidence for Karen not to have copped that moniker either directly or indirectly as a result of the thread or gossip about the thread I started sometime back re Wu-Tang name generator aliases. It's Maia Shibutani who is the Quiet Assassin. Karen may not have liked the name that actually comes up for her on the Wu-Tang mess.be website. I don't blame her.

In any case, if you go there and don't like the name that comes up, you can put in your full name or a nickname and see whether something you like better will generate. Or, you can grab any moniker you prefer and make it your own, like Karen apparently did.

BTW, Ashley Wagner is Tha Ambassador, which seems to have been eerily accurate at points during her career, but no longer. Or maybe it's still so in the sense of her ability to fashion her own skating career and now to transition toward something else she finds fulfilling.

So the Wu-Tang name generator alias for Bradie Tennell = Vizual Conqueror (maybe referencing her clean landings)!

Mirai Nagasu = Crazy Mastermind (I think she's admitted to the 'crazy')

 

[olympic]

I rewatched Mirai's LP a couple of times. I really wanted to get a good look at her landings on the big combos in slo-mo because they haven't been discussed: Were her 3F-3T and 2A-3T-2T rotated?? I think the 3 jump combo was OK, but it looked like she hooked the 3T on the 3F-3T, but the only camera angle was from behind, so who knows.

 

[Areski]

I rewatched Mirai's LP a couple of times. I really wanted to get a good look at her landings on the big combos in slo-mo because they haven't been discussed: Were her 3F-3T and 2A-3T-2T rotated?? I think the 3 jump combo was OK, but it looked like she hooked the 3T on the 3F-3T, but the only camera angle was from behind, so who knows.

It looked pretty much like a typical UR of Mirai that she gets call for in real time to me (when she makes this error). She'd not get away with that in international event I think.

 

[SmallFairy]

Urmanov and Baiul

At least Baiul was the reigning world champion.

I have never once listened to anything TSL, but I´ve read enough in this forum to know that Dave will say anything to create drama. I can´t imagine he has any credibility at all? Why listen to this guy?

 

[bardtoob]

I think the 3 jump combo was OK, but it looked like she hooked the 3T on the 3F-3T, but the only camera angle was from behind, so who knows.

I watched the replay at 0.25 speed, so it was extra slow, and it looked close to 1/4 and would be a tough call regardless. She seem to have that lazy ankle hook even when fully rotated, which really ruins the running edge when she exits a jump ... Alas

I wish Mirai was landing flat back.

 

[Carolla5501]

So we are back to the "we spent hour analyzing jumps to prove the technical panel was wrong" posts? Really? Folks it's time to move on, if you are spending your days watching skaters at 0.25 speed just to nitpick and you aren't their coach, WHY?

 

[bardtoob]

So we are back to the "we spent hour analyzing jumps to prove the technical panel was wrong" posts? Really? Folks it's time to move on, if you are spending your days watching skaters at 0.25 speed just to nitpick and you aren't their coach, WHY?

Because YouTube has 1080HD and 0.25 speed on my phone, so why not.

Maybe it is a generational thing. I have friends that watch video of others playing video games. I think that is insane ... But they do it because the technology allows for it.

 

[mag]

I watched the replay at 0.25 speed, so it was extra slow, and it looked close to 1/4 and would be a tough call regardless. She seem to have that lazy ankle hook even when fully rotated, which really ruins the running edge when she exits a jump ... Alas

I wish Mirai was landing flat back.

I always find the term “lazy ankle” hysterical. Johnny used the same term about Karen. It is that “lazy ankle” that allows them to stay upright on cheated jumps. (I haven’t watched Mirai’s in slow motion so this is not specific to this comp.) It isn’t the ankle that causes the cheat. The jump is cheated in that the skater simply didn’t get all the way around. The flexible ankle with enough strength to hold onto the edge can keep the skater from falling. This is helpful in competition because they don’t get a fall deduction, but not so helpful in training because there is no negative reinforcement (falling) to encourage them to get full rotation.

 

[Maximillian]

I always find the term “lazy ankle” hysterical. Johnny used the same term about Karen. It is that “lazy ankle” that allows them to stay upright on cheated jumps. (I haven’t watched Mirai’s in slow motion so this is not specific to this comp.) It isn’t the ankle that causes the cheat. The jump is cheated in that the skater simply didn’t get all the way around. The flexible ankle with enough strength to hold onto the edge can keep the skater from falling. This is helpful in competition because they don’t get a fall deduction, but not so helpful in training because there is no negative reinforcement (falling) to encourage them to get full rotation.

I think, at least in Mirai's case this is a consequence of growing up under 6.0...as far as Karen and the others, not really sure.

 

[vesperholly]

I think, at least in Mirai's case this is a consequence of growing up under 6.0...as far as Karen and the others, not really sure.

Eh, IJS was introduced the year that Mirai was a 10-year-old in Juvenile (and it was in the works for several years prior). I don't recall when they implemented it for the lower levels, but it was in place by the time she was a Novice in 05-06.

I think it's just poor technique. She's almost always a little tipped in the air, so her foot isn't 90 degrees to the ice. It makes that hooked landing much more likely.

 

[leigh466]

It looked like pretty much like a typical UR of Mirai that she gets call for in real time to me (when she makes this error). She'd not get away with that in international event I think.

Both Tonia K. and Johnny/Tara called everything else clean save for the lutz even on replay. Mirai herself coming off the ice identified only the lutz as a problem to her coach, Tom Z., as she came off the ice, then saying, "It was still really good." I think these three sources overrule your opinion.

 

[Maximillian]

Eh, IJS was introduced the year that Mirai was a 10-year-old in Juvenile (and it was in the works for several years prior). I don't recall when they implemented it for the lower levels, but it was in place by the time she was a Novice in 05-06.

Yeah, it was put in place when Mirai was a novice, after she pretty much had all her triples...so I stand by my point.