Best ice dance team that did Not win the OGM

[Vash01]

They weren't at the World Trade Center or lower Manhattan at the time. They have as much "personal experience" of 9/11 as most of other people in the Tri-state area who have varying degrees of direct loss but I don't know many who would wear tattered rags, put ashes in their hair, and dance to a song with lyrics like "there's a time to die" mere months after it happened with huge O-faces while vying for a gold medal and then have the gall to complain about the lack of response from the American audience and continue to make comments bashing America for not appreciating their dances for a year afterwards (combining it with their lame rock n roll FD where it showed that they didn't really get how to dance or interpret rock n roll).

To me, it just read as an excuse for L/A and Linichuk to do the usual DRAMATIKKK Russian-style FD and not go outside their wheelhouse even after the ISU directive to skate to more "uplifting" music...aka dance music that would get the audience clapping and bouncy because 1) it was their strength and 2) they know serious/dramatic/artsy/pretentious FDs trump dancey/fun FDs to the judges' eyes.

I am sure those who were in that area (it doesn't have to be at WTC or Manhattan) experienced something that others who were 3000 miles away, like me, and we too felt it. I see nothing wrong in their artistic expression of it, costumes included. A/P were just so fake in using MLK's voice tgat they dropped in my opinion a bit. I was never their Uber but I loved their R&J in 1998. Hated Beethoven's last night but their 2002 FD was The worst.

 

[VGThuy]

I am sure those who were in that area (it doesn't have to be at WTC or Manhattan) experienced something that others who were 3000 miles away, and we too felt it. I see nothing wrong in their artistic expression of it, costumes included. A/P were just so fake in using MLK's voice tgat they dropped in my opinion a bit. I was never their Uber but I loved their R&J in 1998. Hated Beethoven's last night but their 2002 FD was The worst.

I do agree with you that their MLK FD was their WORST. I'm not sure if I totally buy their reasonings for the MLK voiceovers either but I can see both them and L/A misjudging how their dances would go over. A/P thought they were doing a tribute to American-style "liberty and freedom". To me, their main issue with the dance was that it wasn't interesting and they had to repeat moves from previous dances by SLC to make them more interesting (like adding more Gwendal leaps, reusing some audience-friendly lifts, etc.). I know it was supposed to be more of an interpretive dance, but I totally understand why the ice dance tech committee saw it and was like "we need REAL dance routines moving forward!" They probably thank the skating gods that Dancing with the Stars and So You Think You Can Dance became so popular as other dance competition shows so they could give ice dance teams video examples of what they want.

 

[allezfred]

A/P's FD was cheesy, to please the American audience, and had nothing to do with hiw they felt about MLK.

I presume that Anissina/Peizerat felt inspired by one of the iconic speeches of the 20th century and what it had to say about freedom more than to please an American audience.

And I think Lobacheva/Averbukh’s free was probably the best of their career. Which isn’t saying much.

 

[VGThuy]

And I think Lobacheva/Averbukh’s free was probably the best of their career. Which isn’t saying much.

As much as I have said about it, I also agree with you on that point. Seriously, their previous FDs were so boring I have trouble paying attention for four minutes straight. At least this one wasn't boring.

Back to the other contenders, I don't know what FP/M were thinking. I could see "I Will Survive" working, but the way that whole FD was constructed was so strange and felt too exhibition-like in content. Somehow, they hid their weaknesses a lot better with their previous FDs. I do remember in that book trashy book Frozen Assets that Barbara complained first that A/P and L/A didn't follow the rules and should have been deducted for it, and that, second, Morosov worked with them on their dance (which explains the horrible patterning of their dance) and he had more loyalties to his then love-interest/future ex-wife Shae Lynn Bourne and B/K's Michael Jackson dance. What does everyone think about her thoughts?

 

[allezfred]

Fusar-Poli/Margaglio’s free that season was absolutely the worst of their career (not going to count the Prince of Egypt WTF from 2006). I have no idea what they were thinking….

 

[kwanfan1818]

If A/P thought MLK was going to appeal to an American audience, they were just as tone-deaf and deluded as people describe L/A being.

And "that area" included the Pentagon and Shanksville, PA, not just people in the New York Metro/tri-state area, and, the last time I looked at the map, Delaware was between all three attacks.

And I don't think L/A's rock and roll FD in 2003 would have seemed so off and might have been appreciated more (by the audience) if Belbin/Agosto hadn't hit it out of the park with their Elvis program.

 

[VGThuy]

If A/P thought MLK was going to appeal to an American audience, they were just as tone-deaf and deluded as people describe L/A being.

And "that area" included the Pentagon and Shanksville, PA, not just people in the New York Metro/tri-state area, and, the last time I looked at the map, Delaware was between all three attacks.

And I don't think L/A's rock and roll FD in 2003 would have seemed so off and might have been appreciated more (by the audience) if Belbin/Agosto hadn't hit it out of the park with their Elvis program.

I mentioned the Tri-state area only because I thought they were training in New Jersey, but I was confused because Morosov's group was in New Jersey. However, in 2001, Morosov had not yet formed his own group and was in Connecticut with Tarasova at the time. Linichuk was in Delaware at the time while Dubova was in Lake Placid, NY. I only mention Dubova because it just felt right to talk about her during this ice dance period when I mention Linichuk and Tarasova. All of that, and I thought it was pretty clear L/A's program was all about the Towers falling with all the debris and destruction from the falling buildings.

Regarding L/A's rock n roll program, I've honestly don't think I've seen an Eastern European ice dance team (or at least a Russian one) totally get American rock n roll right. Something seems too performative when they do it. Like they're play-acting and not really feeling it. I found that to be super true of L/A's program.

 

[miffy]

I honestly think D/V’s free dance was the best one of the ‘top teams’ that season. I prefer their Worlds costumes to the the Olympics ones. Even the Euros ones were better. They changed costumes a lot

 

[VGThuy]

I honestly think D/V’s free dance was the best one of the ‘top teams’ that season. I prefer their Worlds costumes to the the Olympics ones. Even the Euros ones were better. They changed costumes a lot

I agree. I know some criticized their dance at the time for skating in one big giant circle, but I remember rewatching it recently and paying attention to their patterns, lines, and direction (counterclockwise v. clockwise) and it seemed to actually have more variety than it looked or than what people said. Maybe because their skating was a bit curvier that gave people that impression?

 

[kwanfan1818]

I mentioned the Tri-state area only because I thought they were training in New Jersey, but I was confused because Morosov's group was in New Jersey.

If they had been training in Hackensack, they'd have been the same distance from WTC as the Bronx Botanical Gardens, Shea Stadium, the center of Staten Island, and only three miles farther than Brighton Beach. And quite a bit closer than Scarsdale in Westchester County or Long Island (Nassau County).

 

[VGThuy]

If they had been training in Hackensack, they'd have been the same distance from WTC as the Bronx Botanical Gardens, Shea Stadium, the center of Staten Island, and only three miles farther than Brighton Beach. And quite a bit closer than Scarsdale in Westchester County or Long Island (Nassau County).

As someone who lives in Brooklyn and travels to Jersey a bit, I’m familiar. I have friends who lost family members in the attack or whose family members volunteered as medics and firefighters. I’ve never been to Shea Stadium though. Only Citifield, but I used to go to Yankee Stadium more often. Like I said, people have personal experience with the attack with varying degrees of loss but I’m not sure if they would like L/A’s tribute. Some of my friends with very personal experiences with 9/11 took issue with Med’s tamer 9/11 program at my 2017 Worlds party but mostly were cracking up at it.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Like I said, people have personal experience with the attack with varying degrees of loss but I’m not sure if they would like L/A’s tribute. Some of my friends with very personal experiences with 9/11 took issue with Med’s tamer 9/11 program at my 2017 Worlds party but mostly were cracking up at it.

And I, who had personal experiences of 9/11 loss, appreciated the sentiment and thoughts behind both, especially by a creator for whom I think 9/11 wasn't an abstraction. So many, diverse reactions, with no one owning a "right" one.

 

[caseyedwards]

I mentioned the Tri-state area only because I thought they were training in New Jersey, but I was confused because Morosov's group was in New Jersey. However, in 2001, Morosov had not yet formed his own group and was in Connecticut with Tarasova at the time. Linichuk was in Delaware at the time while Dubova was in Lake Placid, NY. I only mention Dubova because it just felt right to talk about her during this ice dance period when I mention Linichuk and Tarasova. All of that, and I thought it was pretty clear L/A's program was all about the Towers falling with all the debris and destruction from the falling buildings.

Regarding L/A's rock n roll program, I've honestly don't think I've seen an Eastern European ice dance team (or at least a Russian one) totally get American rock n roll right. Something seems too performative when they do it. Like they're play-acting and not really feeling it. I found that to be super true of L/A's program.

Of course this made me think of Grishuk and Platov Elvis but I thought that was at least extremely high energy

 

[thvu]

I actually like L&A’s 2002 FD, if I ignore the theme and intention. Showcasing a harpsichord piece like that was pretty daring. I liked a lot of the choreographic ideas (but again, the inspiration is ).
A&P’s FD had some good moments, but I hate what the FD became by the Olympics. So much of the program used recycled footwork, highlights, choreography, that it started to feel like a “Best of A&P” program, not a tribute to Liberty and MLK. The original choreography is still my favorite version of that program.

I agree with everyone that FP&M and B&K’s FDs that season were just utter garbage programs. I much preferred Drobiazko and Vanagas’s FD, but I remember their FD didn’t reach the right end of the rink until halfway through the program. That, to me, was the biggest criticism of that program pattern-wise, but they still wiped the floor with FP&M and B&K. They should be Olympic Bronze Medallists and 2002 World Silver Medallists (SIGH at their 4th place at that worlds…)

 

[VGThuy]

Here's Gwendal's words on the inspiration behind "Liberta":

Anissina & Peizerat (FRA) - 2001-2002 Season Grand Prix Final, Ice Dancing, Round 3

Kitchener, Ontario, CANADA - 2001-2002 Season Grand Prix Final, Ice Dance, Round 3 - Free Dance - Marina Anissina and Gwendal Peizerat of France suffered an ...

www.youtube.com

The idea of liberty being a strong link between France the U.S., and then the events of 9/11 gave them a stronger will to express that theme to the American people with the Olympics being in Salt Lake City. Marina kind of just sat there. I wonder if she simply didn't speak English that well so she just let Gwendal speak for both of them.

 

[On My Own]

Delobel/Schoenfelder.

But seeing that they're not on the poll, I voted for P/C. Just to throw it out there, for the universe, that S/K winning will NOT be okay.

 

[Andora]

I voted K&O, however conflicted. I think their Carmen was shit, but I probably would have had it (and A&P) ahead of the miserable but technically sharp Memorial from Grischuk & Platov. Though to be fair, K&O's Masquerade Waltz is one of my favourite programs of all time, so I'm completely biased. Still, even 1998 was a massive miss from most top teams compared to 1997.

Really enjoy most of this thread. Mostly because if there's a year we could just... collectively drop from memory in ice dance, it's definitely 2002. I thought 2006 was bad (it was), but only because I've managed to block 2002 out regularly. None of the top teams could compare to their own previous work save L&A. A&P were magic until Beethoven's Last Night in 2001, and Libertad was such a weak "return to form." Yet still, it was the absolute best of the bunch.

Here's Gwendal's words on the inspiration behind "Liberta":

Anissina & Peizerat (FRA) - 2001-2002 Season Grand Prix Final, Ice Dancing, Round 3

Kitchener, Ontario, CANADA - 2001-2002 Season Grand Prix Final, Ice Dance, Round 3 - Free Dance - Marina Anissina and Gwendal Peizerat of France suffered an ...

www.youtube.com

The idea of liberty being a strong link between France the U.S., and then the events of 9/11 gave them a stronger will to express that theme to the American people with the Olympics being in Salt Lake City. Marina kind of just sat there. I wonder if she simply didn't speak English that well so she just let Gwendal speak for both of them.

This is a spotty memory to be sure, but the idea of a connection between the USA & France regarding liberty is an old one, going back to the Declaration of Independence inspiring the French Revolution & Declaration Of The Rights Of Man. That certainly softened the blow of their FD for me at the time.

 

[Belsornia]

This is a spotty memory to be sure, but the idea of a connection between the USA & France regarding liberty is an old one, going back to the Declaration of Independence inspiring the French Revolution & Declaration Of The Rights Of Man. That certainly softened the blow of their FD for me at the time.

I must have somehow overlooked Marina's discourse on de Tocqueville.

 

[Frau Muller]

Blumberg & Siebert - Who had the bad luck of skating vs Torvill & Dean at a time when the politics allowed for only one non-Soviet team to be on the podium.

 

[blue_idealist]

I can't blame them completely for 1994. That was the period where the ISU really wanted "traditional" and "ballroom". They wanted dances with danceable rhythms meant for the dance floor and not the stage. Their problem is that they went in a strange direction doing a "folksy" dance set to Fellini music (not really invoking Fellini at all) when the Blues from the year before was more their style. Also, the reason the program didn't flow as well as previous programs was because they challenged themselves with trying to do more content and skating difficulty and we realized they were pushing themselves with the difficulty they were doing....another argument in favor of Grishuk/Platov.

I agree. I voted for U/Z.

 

[blue_idealist]

Papadakis and Cizeron for me, as an evidence. Their technique and unisson are so perfect.

I left them out since they still have a chance later.

 

[blue_idealist]

I'm surprised to see the Duchesneys so low - for this one I went with just best overall and disregarded the unfortunateness of their Olympic year program.This poll has a lot of teams I love so it's a tough choice but at their best I think the Duchesneys were something really special. I know their technique has been criticized and I didn't expect them to be #1, I'm just a little startled they have so few votes. Has their star faded so much over the years?

I almost picked them over U/Z.

 

[blue_idealist]

I actually like L&A’s 2002 FD, if I ignore the theme and intention. Showcasing a harpsichord piece like that was pretty daring. I liked a lot of the choreographic ideas (but again, the inspiration is ).
A&P’s FD had some good moments, but I hate what the FD became by the Olympics. So much of the program used recycled footwork, highlights, choreography, that it started to feel like a “Best of A&P” program, not a tribute to Liberty and MLK. The original choreography is still my favorite version of that program.

I agree with everyone that FP&M and B&K’s FDs that season were just utter garbage programs. I much preferred Drobiazko and Vanagas’s FD, but I remember their FD didn’t reach the right end of the rink until halfway through the program. That, to me, was the biggest criticism of that program pattern-wise, but they still wiped the floor with FP&M and B&K. They should be Olympic Bronze Medallists and 2002 World Silver Medallists (SIGH at their 4th place at that worlds…)

The Michael Jackson program is actually my favourite program by B/K, but I'm a huge B/K fan.

 

[VGThuy]

The Michael Jackson program is actually my favourite program by B/K, but I'm a huge B/K fan.

Mine is “Meet Her at the Love Parade” from the 1998-1999 season.

 

[blue_idealist]

Mine is “Meet Her at the Love Parade” from the 1998-1999 season.

I love that one, too! Their only FD I don't like that much is "March With Me."

 

[VGThuy]

I don’t know why but I actually really enjoyed their 2001 Worlds version of “March with Me”. There was something aggressive and even almost powerful about that skate.

 

[miffy]

I like March With Me too! And I like the Adagio FD from 03 even though it is very Morozov-ish, they did it beautifully and really deserved to finally win.

 

[alchemy void]

Back to the other contenders, I don't know what FP/M were thinking. I could see "I Will Survive" working, but the way that whole FD was constructed was so strange and felt too exhibition-like in content.

I don't know what was going on with them that season. I Will Survive was easily the worst FD they ever had, as we've thoroughly discussed here. But Barbara should have absolutely slayed a Tango/Flamenco/Paso Doble OD, and made it an iconic OD, what they came up with was rather average, generic, and unmemorable. Even the costuming and packaging was off.

I can't speak to the CDs, but L/A undoubtedly had superior programs (and performances) here.

I actually like L&A’s 2002 FD, if I ignore the theme and intention. Showcasing a harpsichord piece like that was pretty daring. I liked a lot of the choreographic ideas (but again, the inspiration is ).
A&P’s FD had some good moments, but I hate what the FD became by the Olympics. So much of the program used recycled footwork, highlights, choreography, that it started to feel like a “Best of A&P” program, not a tribute to Liberty and MLK. The original choreography is still my favorite version of that program.

Same. It's their best FD and I think if they had normal hair and costumes, most of my complaints are gone out the window. The harpsichord is badass, and being a sucker for ballads, I quite liked the vocals, especially at that point in time.

Obviously it's interesting how time changes perceptions. I remember back in 2002, I liked thought L/A's FD was fine, and was cringing more at the MLK voiceovers in A/P's FD. I wasn't offended, but I remember it seeming somewhat odd even back then. And I remember Tom Hammond (one of my least favorite commentators ever, but still) questioning the decision to use MLK's speech in a dance program. I think my biggest problem with A/P's FD at the time was Marina's hair.

Morosov worked with them on their dance (which explains the horrible patterning of their dance) and he had more loyalties to his then love-interest/future ex-wife Shae Lynn Bourne and B/K's Michael Jackson dance. What does everyone think about her thoughts?

I think there has to be more to the story. Were they injured that season? Lost training time? I just don't know why they didn't go back to any of their old FDs, unless they were confident the program would be competitive at the Olympics.

I'm kind of answering my own question here, but I just watched their FD performance at Euros the month before for the first time. It does seem significantly better than what they did at the Olympics, with more energy and speed, but maybe that's mostly a function of the crowd support and 480p SD video? So maybe they did believe the material and politics was strong enough for Olympic silver.

I've always assumed if B/K didn't fall at the very end of the FD, they would have won bronze. Is that true? Or could we have had another Olympic scoring scandal?

 

[alchemy void]

Mine is “Meet Her at the Love Parade” from the 1998-1999 season.

Definitely. The debut performance was probably their best. Best costumes, for sure. Too bad they struggled with injuries(?) that season and couldn't skate it up to full potential at Worlds.

 

[escaflowne9282]

I actually like L&A’s 2002 FD, if I ignore the theme and intention. Showcasing a harpsichord piece like that was pretty daring. I liked a lot of the choreographic ideas (but again, the inspiration is ).
A&P’s FD had some good moments, but I hate what the FD became by the Olympics. So much of the program used recycled footwork, highlights, choreography, that it started to feel like a “Best of A&P” program, not a tribute to Liberty and MLK. The original choreography is still my favorite version of that program.

I actually completely agree with this. If L&A had performed the same program in simple black costumes and made it seem like more of a somber tribute rather than an interpretive dance about current events,I don't think I would have found it cringeworthy at all. I actually liked the Royer Vertigo section of the music a lot. TBH his axel jumps were visually interesting, just not in that context..

A&P's FD probably seemed like a good idea in theory, but it fell apart in practice. It was just flat