Ice Dance Partnership Break-Ups Resulting In Success For Another Team or Changing the Trajectory of Ice Dance

[VGThuy]

In the Dance Hall thread, some of us started reminiscing about some female ice dancers who ended up leaving before their time for one reason or another. It got me thinking about how some successful teams sort of had their paths made a bit easier for them with a break-up of a successful team that came right before them.

For example, Belbin/Agosto deserve all the credit for putting U.S. ice dance back on the competitive international map and have probably done the most to inspire young American skaters to take up ice dance during the past decade or so. They did what was perceived as impossible at the time and won a World and an Olympic medal when the field was totally dominated by Europeans. However, before them, there was the team of Jamie Silverstein/Justin Pekarek who won Junior Worlds in 1999 and also coached by Igor. They succeeded Jessica Joseph/Charles Butler who won Junior Worlds in 1998 and even competed in Nagano but broke up after that season. A lot of US fans were hyping Silverstein/Pekarek as the team that could have broken through the 90s-2000s European stronghold on ice dance and be THE U.S. team. However, it was not to be and Belbin/Agosto took that mantle instead. I wonder what would have happened to Belbin/Agosto's trajectory if Silverstein/Pekarek didn't have the issues that they had and continued on to 2006. Someone said when Silverstein was in the KnC in Torino (a great comeback story at Nationals that didn't seem as happy in Torino), she looked like she was thinking B/A's success should have been hers and Justin's.

Davis/White could be seen as another one but to a lesser extent. Before Davis/White, there was Morgan Matthews/Maxim Zavozin. Matthews/Zavozin had beaten Davis/White at the 2004 Nationals at the Junior level. Matthews/Zavozin later on became 2005 Junior World champions after winning bronze the year before and won over Virtue/Moir. They had some respectable GP placements as seniors, and competed at 2006 Worlds where they came in 16th. The following year, their GP results were on par with Davis/White's but at Nationals, Davis/White ended up winning the bronze medal while Matthews/Zavozin placed 5th. Davis/White would compete at Worlds where they had a stunning 7th place senior Worlds debut placing ahead of Nationals silver medalists Gregory/Petukhov. That was probably the highest senior Worlds debut for an American team (at least in a long time) until the Shibs won bronze at their Senior Worlds debut. Then the rest was history and Matthews/Zavozin broke up after that season. This is not quite the same example as Belbin/Agosto as Davis/White actually managed to beat Matthews/Zavozin (and Gregory/Petukhov) outright.

I also wonder what the Shibs' trajectory would have been had Emily Samuelson/Evan Bates not suffered injury preventing them from competing in the 2010-2011 season. The Shibs' surprise World bronze medal that season, I think, held them over for a while in terms of domestic politics (but I also believe they deserved their National medals and World spots) during their stagnation and bought them a bit of time before their comeback in the 2015-2016 season. I wonder what the Shibs' career would have been like if Samuelson/Bates competed that season and continued on to 2018. I also wonder if Chock/Zuerlein would have continued if Samuelson/Bates stayed together.

Do you guys have any thoughts? Other examples?

 

[dramagrrl]

For example, Belbin/Agosto deserve all the credit for putting U.S. ice dance back on the competitive international map and have probably done the most to inspire young American skaters to take up ice dance during the past decade or so. They did what was perceived as impossible at the time and won a World and an Olympic medal when the field was totally dominated by Europeans.

Whoa there. I love B/A and definitely think they started the upward trajectory of ice dance in the U.S. and started the real wave of North American teams making a big impact on the international stage, but let us not forget the first North American world champions, Bourne & Kraatz, who were on the World podium from 1996-2003 (with the exception of 2000, when they were taking a year off, and 2001, when they were fourth in their comeback year).

Reposting what I had posted earlier in the Dance Hall thread:

I was just re-watching Silverstein & Pekarek's Tori Amos FD from 99-00 to show a friend that P/C's current curve lift that has been getting so much praise was done in various incarnations by early Shpilband/Zueva teams almost 20 years ago. (It's still a beautiful lift, but not so much innovative or new.) I still strongly believe that if Jamie hadn't suffered from anorexia and they had stayed healthy and together, the wave of North American ice dance would have started with them rather than Belbin and Agosto. It could have affected so many things, from B/A's rise to V/M's rapid ascent (I still think they would have ascended rapidly, but maybe not quite so fast if S/P had achieved their full potential and there was another North American team winning World championships and Olympic medals).

It may have even affected the current Montreal ice dance dynasty because if D/L had not won world medals in 2006 and 2007 (which may not have happened if there had been another North American team with more political power with the judges at the time), they may not have had the political clout needed to start a big-name ice dance school.

I also believe Crone & Poirier could have had a bigger impact than Gilles/Poirier have so far, and I wonder what Nussear/Forsyth, who were junior U.S. silver medallists and JW silver medallists in 2000, could've done if they had stayed together, or even if Emilie had gone on to other partners, but hadn't had to deal with the sexual abuse at the hands of her coach.

 

[Debbie S]

I also wonder if Chock/Zuerlein would have continued if Samuelson/Bates stayed together.

C&Z split/Greg retired before S/B split, from all accounts.

 

[VGThuy]

I didn't mean to forget about B/K, it's just I was speaking from a U.S.-centric viewpoint and by the time B/A hit seniors in a big way, B/K were on their way out leaving mostly Europeans and Dubreuil/Lauzon and it wasn't guaranteed that B/A would fill the B/K void or stay in the Punsalan/Swallow-Lang/Tchernyshev position. We all know in the 90s-to-mid-2000s, B/K were the exception and not the rule in terms of North American representation in ice dance.

 

[dramagrrl]

In terms of non-NA teams, Rominiuta and Barantsev of Russia, who won JW in both 2000 and 2001, could have made an impact had they stayed together. Of course, Barantsev ended up finding his new partner and future wife in the U.S., so that worked out well for him in the long run, but I think R/B were a much stronger dance team than Wester/Barantsev. In the same era, Maxim Shabalin and his partner before Oksana Domnina, Elena Khaliavina, won JW bronze in 2001 and silver in 2002. They had a very elegant style that was quite different from Shabalin's later skating with Domnina, but I believe Khaliavina was yet another skater who retired due to an eating disorder.

 

[mjb52]

I loved Silverstein and Pekarek.

 

[VGThuy]

Were Anissina/Averbukh one of the few examples where a partnership break up resulted in the former partners forming two strong teams that both had great success? That might be the most extreme example as the subsequent teams that formed from that break up came in first and second at the 2002 Olympics.

 

[skategal]

I think the Crone/Poirier breakup also vaulted Weaver/Poje up the ladder faster than if C/P had stayed together.

Paul took himself out of the running for a few years by beginning a new partnership and the build up that entails and W/P were able to capitalize on that.

 

[VGThuy]

I think a Weaver/Poje v. Crone/Poirier rivalry would have been a fun one to watch like the American ice dance team 3-way battle from 2014-2018 (maybe on-going if Chock/Bates come back from injury strong and the Shibs come back next season).

 

[kwanfan1818]

It may have even affected the current Montreal ice dance dynasty because if D/L had not won world medals in 2006 and 2007 (which may not have happened if there had been another North American team with more political power with the judges at the time), they may not have had the political clout needed to start a big-name ice dance school.

Wing/Lowe started their school on the west coast before Dubreuil/Lauzon stopped skating. Like W/L, D/L focused on bringing up younger teams in the beginning: W/L had at least half of the up-and-coming junior teams and promising younger ones for several years, until the teams split/retired because of growth -- Caelen Dalmer -- injury, and/or university. (They also had Orford/Williams in the senior ranks.)

Besides skills and expertise -- like Lowe, Lauzon did his ISU tech panel training and D/L were ready in-house choreographers/program constructors, like W/L -- they also had the advantage of location, both proximity to Ontario population centers and trains between them, and a province that puts money into its athletes. W/L were, with Skate Canada support, the big game in Vancouver, but Vancouver is isolated, and, in general, younger skaters don't go that far from home, and the Vancouver area had never been a ready-made source of dancers.

W/L couldn't have done it without support from Skate Canada, but they didn't need to be on or near the Worlds podium to start a thriving dance program right out of their competitive career or to get that support.

 

[NAOTMAA]

In terms of non-NA teams, Rominiuta and Barantsev of Russia, who won JW in both 2000 and 2001, could have made an impact had they stayed together. Of course, Barantsev ended up finding his new partner and future wife in the U.S., so that worked out well for him in the long run, but I think R/B were a much stronger dance team than Wester/Barantsev. In the same era, Maxim Shabalin and his partner before Oksana Domnina, Elena Khaliavina, won JW bronze in 2001 and silver in 2002. They had a very elegant style that was quite different from Shabalin's later skating with Domnina, but I believe Khaliavina was yet another skater who retired due to an eating disorder.

I don't know much but I always thought that a lot of Domnina and Shabalin programs were designed around his poor knees and trying to keep the act going while not breaking his legs They might have been different had he been more healthy or at least that's how it was at the end of their career.

I even remember his knees were apparently so bad there was a crazy rumor the Russian fed. would split them and pair her with Roman Kostomarov

 

[dramagrrl]

W/L couldn't have done it without support from Skate Canada, but they didn't need to be on or near the Worlds podium to start a thriving dance program right out of their competitive career or to get that support.

I'm sure D/L would have gotten support from SC regardless - SC has wanted a top-level dance school in Canada for years after seeing their top dance teams leave the country for coaching in the U.S. and Europe. However, the W/L theory was not really tested because their teams only got as far as medalling or being medal contenders at the national level; none of their teams ever got very far internationally because of partner splits, retirements, coaching changes, etc. Would W/L as coaches have managed to get the political backing they needed internationally if their teams had reached higher levels in GP and World competition?

Many other well-reputed coaches in Canada who were not international medallists have had trouble moving teams up the ladder once they've reached senior international level. There was a time when almost every Canadian novice or junior dance team of note trained with Paul MacIntosh in KW, but as each team got higher in the international senior ranks, they would leave MacIntosh's school for coaches with more political clout. Even Carol Lane's school in Scarborough has had trouble in that area. Many of the Scarborough teams left Lane/Razgulejevs when they started climbing the national ranks at the senior level. Paul Poirier and his two partners (Crone and Gilles) have been the only teams out of Scarborough that have achieved any real international success, and even now, G/P seem to lack favour internationally. I have a feeling that if G/P had jumped ship to a coach with more known political reputation in the sport (Shpilband, Zueva, Gadbois, etc.) a few years ago, they might've had a world medal by now, or at least a couple of GPF medals rather than just one.

 

[gk_891]

Before skating together, Torvill & Dean were with other partners and based on what was written here years ago in a thread, their respective partners broke up with them. T&D got together and eventually made history together.

Before skating together, Grishuk & Platov had quite a bit of success with previous partners (e.g. Alexander Chickov, Elena Krikanova, and Larisa Fedorinova). When they quit/retired, they got together and became a dominant team not that long afterwards.

 

[IloveFS]

I really loved Chock and her previous partner... I thought they were much more exciting than Chock and Bates. I also liked Bates and his previous partner, Emily Samuelson!

 

[briancoogaert]

In France, Roxane Petetin & Matthieu Jost were ahead of Pechalat&Bourzat before their split.
Also, Tiffany Zahorski & Alexis Miart were very good, ahead of Papadakis&Cizeron as juniors.

 

[Marta24]

Well, can`t believe they haven`t been mentioned yet, but....Ilinykh/Katsalapov. I wonder how a rivalry between them and P/C would have looked like and how it would have influenced the other teams' choices in terms of their programs.
With I/K around, S/B would probably not have received the huge push in the last quad. I guess we would have I/K as #1, B/S as #2, S/Z and S/B fighting for #3.

 

[VGThuy]

I always wondered how the ice dance hierarchy would have looked like by 2018 if I/K stayed together. I think they could have challenged P/C for a bit. I wonder if Virtue/Moir would have come back if they saw the judges totally supporting I/K and half of them supporting P/C meaning it'd be hard for a third team to sneak in. Or I/K could have underperformed for 3-4 seasons with a nugget of a great performance here and there and then brought it in Pyeongchang. I think I/K were one of the few teams that could have afforded tons of bad performances and not lose any support or backing.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Would W/L as coaches have managed to get the political backing they needed internationally if their teams had reached higher levels in GP and World competition?

The political backing comes from Skate Canada, not because coaches are world medalists. There aren't that many world medalists who have produced champions: aside from D/L, most of the the big name coaches today who have produced recent world medalist were world competitors, but never on World or Olympic podiums: in dance, Shpilband, Zoueva, Camerlengo, Morozov, Kiliakov and Novak, Kustarova and Alekseeva, Haguenauer, and Mezzadri, with Zvinin and Zhuk looking like they will join them.

That's more than Krylova and Zhulin, who are legends, and only Zhulin has done it on his own. It helped that he was married to his future champion at the time. Hopefully, Fusar-Poli will join them.

During the years of Soviet domination, the big names -- Tarasova, Tchaikovskaya, and Dubova -- and following them Boucher-Zazoui -- weren't even all international medalists or international competitors.

Many other well-reputed coaches in Canada who were not international medallists have had trouble moving teams up the ladder once they've reached senior international level.

The most decorated Canadian skaters, including Dubreuil/Lauzon, either went abroad to other coaches who were not World medalists or went to international coaches teaching in NA: Zoueva -- whose is also a naturalized Canadian and started her western career in Canada -- Shpilband, Zazoui, Haguenauer, Camerlengo, Morozov, with the exception being Krylova. So there's nothing specific to not having been a dominant international competitor to taking senior level skaters who are either there or on the brink and creating champions and/or pushing them to the next level.

There's no evidence I see that D/L's world medals are the cause of them being the first Canadian dance coaches to have a string of competitive skaters who've joined their rink from other places. There are structural reasons I see why they had advantages as coaches in this time and place in addition to skills they bring: for example, location, as I mentioned earlier, a weakened Canadian dollar -- it had been at par with USD earlier in this decade -- a weariness with what was considered the paint-by-numbers approach of Zoueva and Shpilband that was dominant and a desire to break their headlock on the podium, and the seemingly miraculous transformation of Papadakis/Cizeron to World Champions in one season, which was mainly Haguenauer's doing (with Gailhauguet actually pushing around his weight to stick it to Zazoui?). In an open market, always brings along as string of skaters who want the same, just as they all flocked to Shpilband and Zoueva at one time.

I have a feeling that if G/P had jumped ship to a coach with more known political reputation in the sport (Shpilband, Zueva, Gadbois, etc.) a few years ago, they might've had a world medal by now, or at least a couple of GPF medals rather than just one.

They might, but they'd be so much less interesting than they are today. And Poirier isn't stupid: he is loyal to Lane, and he knows what that means, politically.

 

[VGThuy]

Speaking if G/P jumping ship and maybe having better results, it may be true that those coaches have clout and know how to politick, but G/P's skating would also be different as well under those coaches, and who knows, maybe they wouldn't have the deficiencies in their basic skating or consistency issues hitting levels if they were coached by those seemingly more successful coaches. Those coaches are successful for reasons outside of politicking too.

Also, was it "mainly" Haguenauer's doing that Papadakis/Cizeron became successful? I think D/L had a strong hand in working on their fundamentals as well and bringing out their potential, technically speaking. You saw how they brought out Hubbell/Donohue's strengths, technically, and made their glide much more prevalent and showcased than it was prior.

 

[skategal]

Yes, Gadbois even improved V/M's basic skating.

 

[screech]

There's been talk about Gilles/Poirier in here, but unless I missed it, nobody mentioned Piper Gilles and Zach Donohue, who were US junior national medallists, medalled at 3 JGP events, and came top 10 at junior worlds. Though she hasn't quite matched his international success as a senior (which I don't quite get), there's no doubt they've both done well since their split.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Also, was it "mainly" Haguenauer's doing that Papadakis/Cizeron became successful? I think D/L had a strong hand in working on their fundamentals as well and bringing out their potential, technically speaking. You saw how they brought out Hubbell/Donohue's strengths, technically, and made their glide much more prevalent and showcased than it was prior.

Glide and fundamentals were never Papadakis/Cizeron's problem -- they honed their fundamentals in France -- and they were never Dubreuil's strength as a world medalist, although they improved under Zazoui. Plus it was Haguenauer who gave them Mozart, which was a championship program.

 

[puglover]

I enjoy the fact that Paul and partners have stayed in Scarborough. Maybe they could have had better results but they also might not have stood out at all. I personally think Carol Lane and company have a unique slant that has made their teams, even the novice/junior teams, interesting. I personally don't know why they are not used more for pairs choreography as I loved the program they did for Paige and Rudi. (I know, ancient history). I loved Asher Hill and wish he was still skating - loved his programs. Alex and Mitchell were gifted skaters but never seemed to be able to find the right vehicle or a style of their own, and they also went to Montreal. B.C. Section seems to have lots of talented young skaters and hopefully Wing and Low will entice more into dance.

 

[VGThuy]

Glide and fundamentals were never Papadakis/Cizeron's problem -- they honed their fundamentals in France -- and they were never Dubreuil's strength as a world medalist, although they improved under Zazoui. Plus it was Haguenauer who gave them Mozart, which was a championship program.

I don’t know. I saw their earlier programs pre-Montreal and I see a difference.

 

[legjumper]

This is maybe a slightly backwards take on the thread topic, but imo Virtue/Moir's announced return ultimately opened the door for Soucisse/Firus's ascent because a number of Canadian teams retired and/or split not long after that announcement. Although S/F were skating with other partners at the time of the announcement, the lack of more depth in the field made their rise easier after they paired up.

 

[kwanfan1818]

This is maybe a slightly backwards take on the thread topic, but imo Virtue/Moir's announced return ultimately opened the door for Soucisse/Firus's ascent because a number of Canadian teams retired and/or split not long after that announcement

Absolutely.

 

[blue_idealist]

Neither team was super-successful at the time, but Dubreuil/Lauzon benefited a bit from Chantal Lefebvre/Michel Brunet splitting and him retiring. Of course, D/L were talented enough that they might have passed L/B in due time anyway.

 

[aliceanne]

The Hubbells are an example of a fairly successful brother/sister team that split. It has worked out for Madison, I don't know if Kiefer wanted to continue or not, but if so, not for him. The success of Hubbell/Donohue has affected Chock/Bates trajectory.

 

[Andora]

I've often thought Carol hit the jackpot with Paul. He is stupendously talented, which is unfortunate for Piper. They were/are seriously mis-matched in terms of skill. She maybe wouldn't have seemed so "behind" with other partners. While Vanessa had posture issues she was working out, she was much closer in terms of skill, but she and Paul didn't have "it." Not just Vanessa - Paul doesn't either.

When they split, I imagine Paul's team was looking for a spark plug, and Piper definitely has "it" in spades. G&P have certainly always been super interesting to watch, but that skill and showmanship divide between them may never be narrowed enough to move forward. As great as they are, and as clever a choreographer Carol is, I don't think it's just politics that they're missing. A change of coach would have been a good idea at some point, but I don't think Carol will ever let Paul leave.

 

[IloveFS]

I enjoy the fact that Paul and partners have stayed in Scarborough. Maybe they could have had better results but they also might not have stood out at all. I personally think Carol Lane and company have a unique slant that has made their teams, even the novice/junior teams, interesting. I personally don't know why they are not used more for pairs choreography as I loved the program they did for Paige and Rudi. (I know, ancient history). I loved Asher Hill and wish he was still skating - loved his programs. Alex and Mitchell were gifted skaters but never seemed to be able to find the right vehicle or a style of their own, and they also went to Montreal. B.C. Section seems to have lots of talented young skaters and hopefully Wing and Low will entice more into dance.

I think it's sad that Asher Hill did not continue in ice dance. I thought he was very talented and showed a lot of promise. I think that Alex and Mitch were much like VM in terms of their style and I was puzzled why they didn't have more success. I guess all the little mistakes added up. Their decisions were probably due, in part, to the longevity of VM's, WP's and GP's ice dance career. I cannot wait to see what LL add to the mix when they eventually become senior. I think they are a perfect combination of VM and Papadakis and Cizeron....