Would Gritschuk & Platov still have beaten Usova & Zhulin for 94 Olympic Gold if Torvill & Dean didnt return

[savchenkoboss]

I know this might seem strange to wonder since in theory T&D being a distant 3rd in the Lillehammer FD and thus overall, would seem to have no barring on how U&Z and G&P fared vs one another in Lillehammer. However without knowing anything else behind it, I have to think T&Ds return in conjuction with it being a half quad had something to do with the highly unusual situation the Russian #2 passed the Russian #1 during a quad for the only time in history. Usova & Zhulin threatened to do it to Klimova & Ponomarenko when they very nearly won the 91 worlds over both the Duchensays and Klimova & Ponomarenko, and also very nearly took 2nd over K&P, but neither happened, and by Albertville they were back to a distant 3rd place. After the 93 season Gritschuk & Platov looked nowhere close to Usova & Zhulin, Usova & Zhulin easily won the 93 worlds with consecutive 1st place ordinals in every dance. G&P barely took silver with 3rd and 4th place ordinals in both the OD and FD. They were in danger of losing Russian #2 to Krylova & Fedorov. Then Torvill & Dean comeback which throws the whole thing into confusion and suddenly all 3 of T&D, U&Z, and G&P end up in a tight race, with U&Z coming out on the short end of the stick, especialy to G&P, at both Europeans and Olympics. This is the only time in history a Russian #2 has passed a Russian #1 during a quad, especialy in an Olympic year.

Of course there are other possible reasons this might have happened. Usova & Zhulin had been in decline ever since their marital problems started which got even worse. Their 94 programs, especialy their free dance, were so bad maybe it would have created a possible challenge or defeat by G&P regardless. There might have been something political happen within the Soviet hierarchy where Linichuk gained a big upper hand on Dubova, especialy seeing Dubova gradually losing power in Russia for years, to the point by 98 she was almost immaterial there. Who knows.

Do Gritschuk & Platov still manage to beat Usova & Zhulin for the Olympic Gold if Torvill & Dean dont return, or do Usova & Zhulin cruise to the Olympic Gold over G&P pretty easily as was expected after the 93 season.

 

[savchenkoboss]

I am surprised most so far think there would be no difference given what a highly unusual turn of events this was in dance. Most were so focused on Torvill & Dean and whether they won in their comeback or not to notice, but looking back now given the nature of dance I don't see what on earth could have led to the previous distant Russian #2 taking Oly Gold from the clear #1 seed, who had waited their turn, without the chaos caused by T&D's shock return. Iregardless of ones opinion of the relative skating merits of the two teams.

 

[blue_idealist]

I was a kid at the time, and have mostly watched the performances on YouTube, but I don't really see how T/D coming back affected U/Z's scores...

 

[savchenkoboss]

I was a kid at the time, and have mostly watched the performances on YouTube, but I don't really see how T/D coming back affected U/Z's scores...

Since the Russian Fed might have decide G&P and their speed or whatever else was a better fit to try and beat T&D than Usova & Zhulin's style. Or with the return of T&D there was just such confusion things like the previous clear Russian #1 status went out the window.

Either way put it down to whatever you think but do keep firmly in mind this is the ONLY time in skating history the pre Olympic season Russian #1 lost the Olympic Gold in either dance or pairs (besides Nagano pairs which was a splatfest) to their own teammate. If not the return of T&D for those who vote NO then what do you believe made this possible/happen?

 

[blue_idealist]

Since the Russian Fed might have decide G&P and their speed or whatever else was a better fit to try and beat T&D than Usova & Zhulin's style.

That does make sense, thanks. The only other reason G&P might have pulled ahead is that they were just thaaaat good, as P/C were just good enough to win their second world championships ahead of tons of people who had beaten them the year before (although I know having P/B retired and 'out of the way' did make that path easier).

 

[Susan M]

I was a kid at the time, and have mostly watched the performances on YouTube, but I don't really see how T/D coming back affected U/Z's scores...

This event was scored under the 6.0 system, still using majority ordinals, so it isn't as simple as the marks the judge gave each skater.

If we had access to the judge's ordinals from that event and assumed any given judge who placed U/Z ahead of G/P would continue to do so with or without T&D, and vice versa, we actually could calculate new hypothetic majority ordinals for each dance. My guess is with 3 top teams, at least one if not more of these dances was won with majority ordinal of 2 and it came down to how many judges or even total ordinals to decide placements for that dance. This is where removal of T&D might affect the result.

Hypothetical calculations apart, I tend to agree the Russians would not have given G/P such a push and judges would not have felt quite as emboldened to place them over U/Z. Also, politics aside (if there ever is such a thing in skating) I think, stylistically, the judges who most admired T&D's classical qualities would have vastly preferred the way U/Z skated.

 

[gk_891]

It's been said here before that the Russian skating federation became angry with both Dubova and Usova/Zhulin between 1993 and 1994 because they didn't present their material to them for them to give feedback. So they switched their support to G&P.

Plus, G&P really gelled together as a team that season (they looked super-fit and ready at both the Europeans and the Olympics) and their material that year clearly appealed to most of the judges even though they were choreographically some of the worst programs of their career. It's clear at that time that the judges didn't care about content. If they did, neither U&Z nor D&D would've come anywhere close to beating Klimova & Ponomarenko. And if they did care about content, G&P would've also placed higher in 1992 and 1993, and arguably 1991 as well. So rightfully or not, G&P's strategy of emphasizing speed and energy over content that particular season is what pushed them to the top. And I think it probably would've worked for them even if T&D hadn't reinstated.

 

[savchenkoboss]

It's been said here before that the Russian skating federation became angry with both Dubova and Usova/Zhulin between 1993 and 1994 because they didn't present their material to them for them to give feedback. So they switched their support to G&P

Wow really. Dubois is just stupid in that case. Why on earth would she ever do that, didn't know if U&Z lost Russian #1 status they automatically lose Oly Gold yet she peeved off the highest ups for no reason.

I agree with you about the judges not caring that much about content. Honestly if they did T&D probably win that year. And oddly enough their famed Bolero to which set all those most 6.0s record really didn't have incredible content.

 

[gk_891]

Wow really. Dubois is just stupid in that case. Why on earth would she ever do that, didn't know if U&Z lost Russian #1 status they automatically lose Oly Gold yet she peeved off the highest ups for no reason.

Dubova's done a lot of questionable stuff in her coaching career. She's an amazing coach but she drove away Klimova, Ponomarenko, Grishuk, Platov, and Navka. And they all managed to recover and collect Olympic gold with different coaches.

 

[casken]

I think G&P simply represented what the ISU wanted Ice Dancing to become at the time; "ballroom", but in a fast, exciting, fresh style. Their FD performance at Euros was a real game changer, IMO.

 

[gk_891]

I think G&P simply represented what the ISU wanted Ice Dancing to become at the time; "ballroom", but in a fast, exciting, fresh style. Their FD performance at Euros was a real game changer, IMO.

That was part of it too.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Both Torvill & Dean and Usova & Zhulin packaged themselves to be old looking to which was a huge mistake. Zhulin looked like an old grandpa from the Roman times in hjs FD attire. He should have worn something like the black sleek outfit he wore in the 2nd CD and OD.

I wonder if U&Z resent Dubova falling out of favor with the Rus. Fed over something stupid for costing the the Oly Gold. I notice as pros they were never coached by Dubova which surprised me.

 

[gk_891]

Both Torvill & Dean and Usova & Zhulin packaged themselves to be old looking to which was a huge mistake. Zhulin looked like an old grandpa from the Roman times in hjs FD attire. He should have worn something like the black sleek outfit he wore in the 2nd CD and OD.

I wonder if U&Z resent Dubova falling out of favor with the Rus. Fed over something stupid for costing the the Oly Gold. I notice as pros they were never coached by Dubova which surprised me.

If you look at the comments in U&Z's 1991 FD (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94PMD_1zmNU), there's a discussion between myself and Grant Noroyan who says:

I even discussed that personally with zhulin (their free dance in 1994) and he said the program and idea was natalia dubovas and by the time they thought it should be changed it was too late

But even if, Zhulin was a ticking time tomb. His whoring around with both Grishuk and Navka really put a strain on U&Z's personal and professional relationship. Usova even said years later than she should've told Dubova back in 1992 when she kicked Grishuk out of her skating camp that Grishuk wasn't the problem, Zhulin was.

 

[briancoogaert]

I think G&P simply represented what the ISU wanted Ice Dancing to become at the time; "ballroom", but in a fast, exciting, fresh style. Their FD performance at Euros was a real game changer, IMO.

But ISU took Usova&Zhulin as the example for their Compulsory Dances VHS, while they were not the best at it, IMO.

 

[gk_891]

But ISU took Usova&Zhulin as the example for their Compulsory Dances VHS, while they were not the best at it, IMO.

I always found that to be curious as to why they were chosen. Their patterns were often small and conservative and her choctaws were very weak.

Better teams to use as examples for the compulsories would've been (at their peak anyways) Torvill & Dean and Bestemianova & Bukin. And sometimes Klimova & Ponomarenko and Grishuk & Platov. With the latter 2 teams it would depend on which compulsory dance, IMO anyways. Anissina & Peizerat and Delobel & Schoenfelder also had some excellent compulsories as well during the peak of their careers.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Usova & Zhulin had a beautiful look in the compulsories, but I am not sure their technique was always the best. I hated their Chowtaws in the Blues especialy, they were pretty horrible. Even the Duchensays who are hardly technical ice dancers by their own admission, did that particular move far better.

I do wish Usova & Zhulin had won the 91 worlds. IMO that was the best they ever looked. Klimova & Ponomarenko were never realistically winning, even though they probably deserved to, due to the negative press around them at the time (drug test, reviews of their Arabian program, coaching conflicts, etc...) and Usova & Zhulin winning instead of the Duchensays would have been great. It also would have given them more momentum going into the 92 Games, and I am sure they now easily win atleast silver even with the same skates. The Duchensays were so bad and out of shape for Albertville, without the world title attached to their name, they now might struggle to even hold off Gritschuk & Platov for bronze. Seriously Albertville was the worst they looked the whole quad, I dont know what was wrong with them there, the only thing holding them up was being World Champs in their home country. Even though U&Z were 3rd at the 91 worlds, they lost gold by only 1 judge didnt they.

 

[briancoogaert]

Isabelle Duchesnay was injured in 1992 (a foot, IIRC), she couldn't train the way she wanted.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Isabelle Duchesnay was injured in 1992 (a foot, IIRC), she couldn't train the way she wanted.

Didnt their brother pass away that fall too? That probably also affected them. Plus the pressure on them. Poor souls, it is understandable why they were well below their best.

 

[gk_891]

Usova & Zhulin had a beautiful look in the compulsories, but I am not sure their technique was always the best. I hated their Chowtaws in the Blues especialy, they were pretty horrible. Even the Duchensays who are hardly technical ice dancers by their own admission, did that particular move far better.

You should see their double choctaw in the rhumba compulsory dance. It was even worse as both the left forward inside edge and right back outside edge were almost like straight lines. To be fair though, few teams could do the double choctaw well.

I do wish Usova & Zhulin had won the 91 worlds. IMO that was the best they ever looked. Klimova & Ponomarenko were never realistically winning, even though they probably deserved to, due to the negative press around them at the time (drug test, reviews of their Arabian program, coaching conflicts, etc...) and Usova & Zhulin winning instead of the Duchensays would have been great. It also would have given them more momentum going into the 92 Games, and I am sure they now easily win atleast silver even with the same skates. The Duchensays were so bad and out of shape for Albertville, without the world title attached to their name, they now might struggle to even hold off Gritschuk & Platov for bronze. Seriously Albertville was the worst they looked the whole quad, I dont know what was wrong with them there, the only thing holding them up was being World Champs in their home country. Even though U&Z were 3rd at the 91 worlds, they lost gold by only 1 judge didnt they.

U&Z's FD that year was artistically stunning. But the lack of content bothered me. Not only did their content pale in comparison to K&P's Lawrence of Arabia but also G&P's Italian folk dance.

But the fact that they came that ckose to winning yet ended up placing third just goes to show how it came down the wire between the top 3 teams.

While what happened to the Duchesnay family that year was truly unfortunate I think they were lucky to have medalled. What really saved them was that they were the defending world champs and the olympics were in France that year. I actually had G&P ahead of both D&D and U&Z in Albertville. Like them or not, G&P's compulsories showed much bigger patterns than either D&D or U&Z, better free leg extension, better choctaws, and better speed and flow over the ice. And both their OD and FD were much more challenging in terms of content.

 

[savchenkoboss]

You should see their double choctaw in the rhumba compulsory dance. It was even worse as both the left forward inside edge and right back outside edge were almost like straight lines. To be fair though, few teams could do the double choctaw well.



U&Z's FD that year was artistically stunning. But the lack of content bothered me. Not only did their content pale in comparison to K&P's Lawrence of Arabia but also G&P's Italian folk dance.

But the fact that they came that ckose to winning yet ended up placing third just goes to show how it came down the wire between the top 3 teams.

While what happened to the Duchesnay family that year was truly unfortunate I think they were lucky to have medalled. What really saved them was that they were the defending world champs and the olympics were in France that year. I actually had G&P ahead of both D&D and U&Z in Albertville. Like them or not, G&P's compulsories showed much bigger patterns than either D&D or U&Z, better free leg extension, better choctaws, and better speed and flow over the ice. And both their OD and FD were much more challenging in terms of content.

Do you think if Usova & Zhulin had won the 91 worlds or atleast been 2nd behind the Duchensays and over K&P it would have helped them in Albertville any? We all know how political dance is. I think after coming 3rd there, their fate was sealed for Albertville.

Also do you think the Duchensays would have performed any better in Albertville without their family grievances and injuries. IMO their programs in 92 were not only technically rusty even for their standards, but in a huge rarity for them completely devoid of any artistic ingenuity or creativity as well.

I must say Klimova & Ponomarenko in Albertville IMO really hit their all time peak. They were by far the best team in that competition, and perhaps their all time best. I loved every single routine they did their. I was bummed this was actually their last year in amateurs as IMO they were hitting their peak.

G&P unfortunately could never have medaled in 92. They were up against 3 super established and really strong and well liked veterans, and 1 of the 3 would have probably had to fall twice in both the OD and FD for them to win a bronze. Again this is ice dance at the time it was super political, protocal oriented. Thank goodness the scoring is a bit more open to judging "on the day" today.

 

[savchenkoboss]

gk_891, I also never saw Bourne & Kraatz's Blues from the 94 Olympics but I heard it was really good, and one of their best CDs ever despite that they weren't in their prime yet. Apparently Betty Callaway told them they should have won that dance, although I think that was part just giving encouragement to a couple young kids. Did they do the Choctaws right, since as you said very few actually do them right.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Dance was going through such an odd period, with rules applied and revised in such a way that the discipline looked like a watered down version of ballroom on ice. To be honest, the most inventive couples such as Torvill & Dean, Usovsa & Zhulin, and Rahkamo & Kokko, looked a tad stifled.

Personally, the team that best met that brief were Moniotte and Lavanchy from France (who ended the season with a silver medal at the 1994 world championships).

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

gk_891, I also never saw Bourne & Kraatz's Blues from the 94 Olympics but I heard it was really good, and one of their best CDs ever despite that they weren't in their prime yet. Apparently Betty Callaway told them they should have won that dance, although I think that was part just giving encouragement to a couple young kids. Did they do the Choctaws right, since as you said very few actually do them right.

I saw Bourne & Kraatz at Canadians, and the buzz surrounded them was even more obvious in person. They really had the 'it factor' as a team, too.

 

[savchenkoboss]

I saw Bourne & Kraatz at Canadians, and the buzz surrounded them was even more obvious in person. They really had the 'it factor' as a team, too.

They were so innovative and refreshing at first. They honestly got more stale and far less enjoyable as time went on.

 

[Susan M]

Usova & Zhulin had a beautiful look in the compulsories, but I am not sure their technique was always the best. I hated their Chowtaws in the Blues especialy, they were pretty horrible.
...

During this era, there was a distinct East-West split in the approach to the CDs. The US and other Western skaters tended to focus on getting the steps very accurate while the Russians put more value on the overall look, things like unison of leg line and presentation qualities. If it helped the dance look better or made the transition from one step to the next look more effortless and clean, they would sometimes compromise on the edge or even timing. At least, that's what we heard from the Western analysts.

 

[gk_891]

Do you think if Usova & Zhulin had won the 91 worlds or atleast been 2nd behind the Duchensays and over K&P it would have helped them in Albertville any? We all know how political dance is. I think after coming 3rd there, their fate was sealed for Albertville.

Hard to say. In 1992, U&Z were not as strong as they had been in 1991. As beautiful as their Four Seasons free dance was, I honestly thought it was a less effective rehash of their 1991 FD. And again, the content of both their OD and FD wasn't very impressive, especially relative to K&P and G&P. In the OD, I actually had U&Z behind not only K&P, G&P, but also Moniotte & Lavanchy (M&L usualy had terrible ODs but they had an absolutely brilliant polka OD that year). But they definitely would've had momentum on their side.

Also do you think the Duchensays would have performed any better in Albertville without their family grievances and injuries. IMO their programs in 92 were not only technically rusty even for their standards, but in a huge rarity for them completely devoid of any artistic ingenuity or creativity as well.

They probably would've skated their programs better in terms of confidence and sure footedness but they played it safe with their Sound of Music OD and WWS FD. Even if they skated those programs all out, I still would've had them behind not only K&P and G&G but probably U&Z as well.

I must say Klimova & Ponomarenko in Albertville IMO really hit their all time peak. They were by far the best team in that competition, and perhaps their all time best. I loved every single routine they did their. I was bummed this was actually their last year in amateurs as IMO they were hitting their peak.

I personally preferred K&P when they did the more traditional ballroom dance-type programs. It showed off their clinical skating skills better. I personally thought their Bach program was overkill in terms of the passion and angst but I'm aware that I'm in the minority.

G&P unfortunately could never have medaled in 92. They were up against 3 super established and really strong and well liked veterans, and 1 of the 3 would have probably had to fall twice in both the OD and FD for them to win a bronze. Again this is ice dance at the time it was super political, protocal oriented. Thank goodness the scoring is a bit more open to judging "on the day" today.

Oh for sure. Even Platov knew he and Oksana were not medalling in any way shape or form. I still liked their skating abilities and programs better than either U&Z or D&D though!

 

[gk_891]

gk_891, I also never saw Bourne & Kraatz's Blues from the 94 Olympics but I heard it was really good, and one of their best CDs ever despite that they weren't in their prime yet. Apparently Betty Callaway told them they should have won that dance, although I think that was part just giving encouragement to a couple young kids. Did they do the Choctaws right, since as you said very few actually do them right.

Hmm, I've never seen their Blues CD from the 1994 Olympics. I'm curious now because I've never been impressed with their compulsory dances except maybe the Silver Samba. Even if they did do it correctly, I'm not so sure if I would have them in first though as Grishuk & Platov skated a very very strong Blues CD at that competition and their choctaw looked very good to me.

 

[savchenkoboss]

Hmm, I've never seen their Blues CD from the 1994 Olympics. I'm curious now because I've never been impressed with their compulsory dances except maybe the Silver Samba. Even if they did do it correctly, I'm not so sure if I would have them in first though as Grishuk & Platov skated a very very strong Blues CD at that competition and their choctaw looked very good to me.

I think I remember seeing it on CTV a long time ago. It was very good, and an unusually strong CD for their standards, even in their later prime years. The dance must suit them. Their Starlight Waltz by contrast was pretty terrible I thought. Yet of course both dances came in the exact same spot (10th), lol, like I said typical ice dancing back then.

It was ironic the 94 Europeans and 94 Olympics actually had movement between the top 3 teams, a refreshing rarity for ice dance back then.

 

[gk_891]

During this era, there was a distinct East-West split in the approach to the CDs. The US and other Western skaters tended to focus on getting the steps very accurate while the Russians put more value on the overall look, things like unison of leg line and presentation qualities. If it helped the dance look better or made the transition from one step to the next look more effortless and clean, they would sometimes compromise on the edge or even timing. At least, that's what we heard from the Western analysts.

I would not be surprised if this were true. One ice dance coach also told me that Russian ice dancers were also known for skating on flat edges but with a ton of expression (to draw attention away from the flat edges).

But one Russian ice dance team who did the compulsories very well was Bestemianova & Bukin. Their choctaws were amazingly strong and they could could trace the patterns out on the ice amazingly well. And they do seem to hit the correct edges unlike some of their countrymen:

1984 Rhumba (their double choctaw looked extremely strong to me, both edges taken very wide and timed very well)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnOeR88n6TU

1987 Westminster Waltz (not very waltzy but again, they're amazingly strong at tracing out very wide patterns and they're one of the few teams who do not lose speed or flow after step 15 where the lady does an inside three turn)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHVxzT4aYuo

1987 Yankee Polka
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlHFk2u8dcU

1988 Kilian (their crossed open choctaw was skated perfectly)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3y3do9T5SoI

Teams like Klimova & Ponomarenko and Grishuk & Platov could also rock some of the compulsory dances. But there were some that were suprisingly (surprising for me anyways) weak. Neither team skated the rhumba CD all that well. Both teams seemed to struggle with the right back outside edge. I'm not really convinced that Klimova or Grishuk even hit a back outside edge. And the second step is slower than the first one.

K&P
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taMOixgZ7a4

G&P
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzCdLM7JdZg

And it's to my understanding that Marina also does not skate her crossed open choctaw in the Kilian CD well either. Maybe it's to do with the way Soviet ice dancers were trained back then. But interestingly both ladies (Klimova and Grishuk) seemed to do just fine with the closed choctaw in the Blues CD, to my eyes anyways.

 

[gk_891]

I think I remember seeing it on CTV a long time ago. It was very good, and an unusually strong CD for their standards, even in their later prime years. The dance must suit them. Their Starlight Waltz by contrast was pretty terrible I thought. Yet of course both dances came in the exact same spot (10th), lol, like I said typical ice dancing back then.

It was ironic the 94 Europeans and 94 Olympics actually had movement between the top 3 teams, a refreshing rarity for ice dance back then.

I did manage to find their starlight waltz. And yes, it wasn't very good! Have you seen their golden waltz or argentine tango from Nagano? Both dances were riddled with errors. I'm kind of curious now to see their blues!

I did however like B&K's Rhumba OD. Again, this was a surprise for me because B&K's OD usually suck. But their rhumba was excellent. In Lillehammer, I might've placed B&K 5th in the OD behind T&D, U&Z, R&K, and G&P.