Skate Canada Changes Definition of Pairs/Ice Dance "Team" for Domestic Events to "Two Skaters"

[overedge]

Per press release today:

Definition of ‘Team’ updated to reflect gender diversity across the Podium Pathway

OTTAWA, ON: Skate Canada is pleased to be advancing its Skating for Everyone initiative with the updated definition of ‘team’ in the Podium Pathway for pair and ice dance teams. The Podium Pathway definition of ‘team’ will be revised to ‘a team consists of two skaters’. The previous definition...

skatecanada.ca

The previous definition of ‘team’ was one woman and one man. That definition was inconsistent with Skate Canada’s vision of Skating for Everyone and Skate Canada’s commitment to non-discrimination, including non-discrimination based on gender identity....

The definition and the language will be updated in the rule book, Podium Pathway documents, and the scoring system. Previously pair and ice dance teams required an entry of a woman and a man. Updated language of ‘skater A’ and ‘skater B’, ‘lifted partner’ and ‘lifting partner’ as well as ‘follow’ and ‘lead’ can all be used to differentiate each athlete.

The definition of a team as two skaters applies only to Skate Canada domestic events. All International Skating Union (ISU) events are subject to ISU rules.

 

[marbri]

Blades of Glory

I will say I think it presents a great opportunity for skaters in Canada. I think when my daughters were skating they would have loved the opportunity to do ice dance beyond just practicing patterns for a month to pass tests with a partner that was flown in.

And great as well for skaters who want to compete in ISU competitions to be able to train and compete in these disciplines domestically, honing their skills, for a future possibility.

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

HELL YEAH

 

[MacMadame]

ISI already does this and has for years. I think it's great for recreational skaters who want to compete but are never going to get an opposite-sex partner.

 

[marbri]

From the release linked above I think this is slightly different. They mention this has been the case for STAR and ADULT pathways since 2019. This announcement is for the Podium Pathway which are the competitive skaters, not recreational. So I am understanding that these teams will be competing in the same category as all the other teams we see competing at any domestic Canadian competitions (up to and including Nationals I guess) so we could see them competing against domestically against teams we see competing for Canada internationally. Excited to see this implemented.

Couple of quotes from Kaitlyn Weaver and Scott Moir:

“It has been a privilege to work with the Skate Canada Equity, Diversity, Inclusion and Accessibility Operating Committee and push forward this proposal to update the definition of “Team” to include all pairings of gender identities,” said Kaitlyn Weaver, EDIA member and Olympian. “Ice dance is my passion, and although beautifully steeped in tradition, the future of our sport depends on looking critically and assertively at who and who is not represented. All skaters deserve to have a home on the ice— inclusive of their fullest selves. I look forward to seeing that become a reality in the competitive arena.”



“It was necessary for the ice dance and pair world to change their definition of team from a man and a woman to just two people skating together, however they identify. Many colleagues and I have pushed for this change and are excited that Skate Canada has taken action to make skating more accessible,” said Scott Moir, Skate Canada coach and Olympic Champion. “Our craft is a mixture of athleticism and art and because of this we have a unique opportunity for a level playing field unlike any other sport, regardless of how individuals identify. This change will push the sport forward in many ways with the creation of new and interesting work from athletes that now can perform together.”

 

[platniumangel]

Does anyone know if it will be a different “track” in ice dancing/pairs? Example- man/woman teams and then all other teams? Or are they all in one category now?

 

[Skate Talker]

All one category as was noted in previous posts and in the linked Skate Canada announcement.
"Skate Canada said in a tweet that there are no new event categories, and any team can enter the pair or ice dance disciplines at any Skate Canada domestic event."

 

[overedge]

FWIW for a long time at local/regional competitions (non-qualifying) there have been categories for same-sex ice dance, pairs, or "showcase" teams, if the organizers scheduled them. This was way before Skate Canada changed the Starskate and Adult definitions of "teams".

When there's so many more women/girls in the sport than men/boys, those kinds of categories give the women/girls a chance to work on programs and to compete if they don't have a male partner. And some competitions let same-sex couples compete in the same group as male-female couples, especially in regions where the competitive groups would be very small if they are separated.

So in a way, these changes are just acknowledging what local/regional competitions have already been doing for years.

 

[Aussie Willy]

The ISU are also working on Solo Dance as a recognised discipline. Roller have been doing it for years so it is time we caught up.

I also think people of the same gender being able to compete is actually a great idea. There are pairs moves you could do that do not rely on a superior strength of one partner. And skaters can use those for other disciplines such as Theatre on Ice and Synchro Skating. There is no reason you couldn't do mini-synchro teams which incorporate those moves. Again Roller is way ahead of us in that regard.

 

[Sylvia]

The ISU are also working on Solo Dance as a recognised discipline.

Thanks for creating a thread in the MITF subforum:

Solo Ice Dance

Just wondering if anyone else was aware that the ISU is going to bring in Solo Ice Dance as an official discipline with it's own set of rules and regulations. I think this is a great move to give skaters further opportunities. Roller sports have been doing it for years and is very popular.

www.fsuniverse.net

Kaitlyn Weaver's tweet today: https://twitter.com/kaitlynonice/status/1602690350228901889

This has been my passion for the last 9months. so proud to be on the committee to promote this change to include ALL athletes as equal agents in a partnership. Thank you @SkateCanada - you’re leading the way.

A couple can now be made up of skaters of all genders. LFG!!!!!

 

[Yuri]

Here's a link to the main Skate Canada Twitter thread:

https://twitter.com/SkateCanada/status/1602680508109946884

As noted above, Blades of Glory here we come!

If Skate Canada believes this policy is appropriate for pairs and ice dancing for the Podium Pathway, why not go all the way and eliminate the men's and women's distinctions and have everyone compete together in singles under a common set of rules and regulations? How can they justify it for couples events while not having all genders compete as one in singles? Seems a bit inconsistent to me.

 

[sap5]

How will this work in practice? If, for example, same sex teams take the 3 podium spots at pre-Olympic Nationals, then the 4th place team would be CAN #1 at the Olympics? Would politicks allow for that? Or will we see man/woman teams be inflated until same sex teams are allowed to compete internationally?

 

[Aussie Willy]

Here's a link to the main Skate Canada Twitter thread:

https://twitter.com/SkateCanada/status/1602680508109946884

As noted above, Blades of Glory here we come!

If Skate Canada believes this policy is appropriate for pairs and ice dancing for the Podium Pathway, why not go all the way and eliminate the men's and women's distinctions and have everyone compete together in singles under a common set of rules and regulations? How can they justify it for couples events while not having all genders compete as one in singles? Seems a bit inconsistent to me.

It is about providing opportunities to have people involved in the sports. My concern are all the females who give up because there is no competitive pathway. Pairs and ice dance that can have two of the same gender is something that provides those opportunities but also allows skaters to compete at a high elite level when the regulations are in place and they are catered through that.

As I said Roller are way ahead of the ice figure skating sports in they types of divisions they have.

 

[Aussie Willy]

How will this work in practice? If, for example, same sex teams take the 3 podium spots at pre-Olympic Nationals, then the 4th place team would be CAN #1 at the Olympics? Would politicks allow for that? Or will we see man/woman teams be inflated until same sex teams are allowed to compete internationally?

If there is a set of elements that every team must complete in order to compete, then those who cannot do them will be at a disadvantage. But there is no reason you couldn't create new divisions to cater for them.

 

[VGThuy]

If Roller is providing examples and precedents to deal with this issue, then I say seeing what Roller has done is definitely worth looking into and researching to see if we can adapt this for figure skating.

IMO, the more accessible we make skating, and the more opportunities we can create to ensure people can continue to compete in figure skating, the better the sport will be. We need participation and to make this sport as long-lasting as possible for those participating. Many other sports have gotten the memo, and some of the most popular sports worldwide now have much more universal participation in bigger numbers thanks to accessibility.

Figure skating in of itself will always have an obstacle of accessibility due to cost of ice time, coaching, costume, and choreography services on top of costs of equipment and other membership fees, if applicable. And that's just to start competing. Once you become nationally and internationally competitive....So why not help increase participation where we can help it.

And if people are fearing unisex competitions where one sex will have an advantage over another...well, the scoring system and structure of what constitutes a "skating program" can be adapted to equally reward the strengths of ATHLETES of different sizes, body shapes, and muscle masses. We're not saying make things totally equal, but skating can reward much more than jumps with rotations in the air with regard to singles skating and still reward sheer athleticism and difficulty.

 

[Aussie Willy]

If Roller is providing examples and precedents to deal with this issue, then I say seeing what Roller has done is definitely worth looking into and researching to see if we can adapt this for figure skating.

I recently discovered another Synchro discipline going down rabbit holes on Youtube which is like a combination of Synchro and TOI. Very high level skating skills and some pretty amazing and creative stuff. I will try and find and post some of the clips. But they had a recent World Skate which includes a number of the roller disciplines. All the figure skating equivalents fall under the Artistic category.

Worldskate - Skateboarding & Roller Sports - Home

From 24 October to 13 November 2022, Buonos Aires and San Juan will experience the world's largest event comprising all the world championship roller sports disciplines as regulated by the World Skate international federation.

www.worldskate.org

Disciplines listed here for Artistic - https://www.worldskate.org/wsg2022/sports/disciplina/100-Artistic.html

 

[overedge]

If Skate Canada believes this policy is appropriate for pairs and ice dancing for the Podium Pathway, why not go all the way and eliminate the men's and women's distinctions and have everyone compete together in singles under a common set of rules and regulations? How can they justify it for couples events while not having all genders compete as one in singles? Seems a bit inconsistent to me.

Because ice dance and pairs are about what the two skaters can do collectively, not what they can do as a "man" or as a "woman". The separate categories for single skaters acknowledge that there are differences in what men and women are capable of.

AFAIK singles skaters can register in whatever gender category they feel is appropriate for them, at least up to the National level. The ISU and the IOC will have to sort out gender category eligibility at the international/Olympic level.

 

[VGThuy]

And one positive thing is that despite many female skaters being body shamed and having eating disorders be a seriously pervasive issue in this sport, almost all, if not all, women who compete in this sport in all disciplines are very petite and small in real life. If we open up pairs and ice dance so that skaters can form and compete in partnerships unhindered by sex/gender requirements, then this sport may open itself up to much more women since one no longer has to only be a woman of a certain and specific small size to compete in this sport any longer.

This reminds me of a video of Lolo Jones easily lifting up Alex Shibutani and rotating.

 

[Aussie Willy]

And one positive thing is that despite many female skaters being body shamed and having eating disorders be a seriously pervasive issue in this sport, almost all, if not all, women who compete in this sport in all disciplines are very petite and small in real life. If we open up pairs and ice dance so that skaters can form and compete in partnerships unhindered by sex/gender requirements, then this sport may open itself up to much more women since one no longer has to only be a woman of a certain and specific small size to compete in this sport any longer.

This reminds me of a video of Lolo Jones easily lifting up Alex Shibutani and rotating.

Good point.

Watch Synchro. There are women of all shapes and sizes competing there.

 

[marbri]

Here's a link to the main Skate Canada Twitter thread:

https://twitter.com/SkateCanada/status/1602680508109946884

As noted above, Blades of Glory here we come!

If Skate Canada believes this policy is appropriate for pairs and ice dancing for the Podium Pathway, why not go all the way and eliminate the men's and women's distinctions and have everyone compete together in singles under a common set of rules and regulations? How can they justify it for couples events while not having all genders compete as one in singles? Seems a bit inconsistent to me.

Except I wasn't trying to be negative when I posted that

And I would agree with what overedge wrote that it's about what the duo can do collectively. When you think of the elements pairs and ice dance teams do there really isn't an advantage/disadvantage between genders. And before someone mentions lifts or twists we have had international competitors doing these elements where there wasn't much difference between their height/builds.
Unlike in single disciplines where there is clearly a difference between genders when it comes to jumping ability. At least for the non-coffee drinking set.

 

[sap5]

And one positive thing is that despite many female skaters being body shamed and having eating disorders be a seriously pervasive issue in this sport, almost all, if not all, women who compete in this sport in all disciplines are very petite and small in real life. If we open up pairs and ice dance so that skaters can form and compete in partnerships unhindered by sex/gender requirements, then this sport may open itself up to much more women since one no longer has to only be a woman of a certain and specific small size to compete in this sport any longer.

This reminds me of a video of Lolo Jones easily lifting up Alex Shibutani and rotating.

But teams could do that now anyway. There hasn't been anything stopping the formation of a team that has a larger woman and a smaller man, where the woman is the main lifting partner and the man the one who is lifted.

 

[sap5]

Except I wasn't trying to be negative when I posted that

And I would agree with what overedge wrote that it's about what the duo can do collectively. When you think of the elements pairs and ice dance teams do there really isn't an advantage/disadvantage between genders. And before someone mentions lifts or twists we have had international competitors doing these elements where there wasn't much difference between their height/builds.
Unlike in single disciplines where there is clearly a difference between genders when it comes to jumping ability. At least for the non-coffee drinking set.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind combining both sexes in singles into one division, and just limiting the jumps to triples.

 

[caseyedwards]

Dumb
They should not redefine pairs and dance
They should do acrobatic gymnastics mens pairs womens pairs

 

[Deleted member 221]

Net-net, this is a good thing, especially given the gender imbalance in pairs and dance, with many more women than men in the sport - women who, to this point, have been limited by lack of male partners. The benefit will be overwhelmingly at lower levels and help to keep people (predominantly girls/women) in the sport longer.

At the elite level, I suspect this will make little difference. I think it would be hard for male-male or female-female partnerships to succeed at the elite level, especially in pairs. The only real advantage a male-male pair team would have is on side-by-side jumps, but that would be negated by so many other elements behind harder. Male-male dance might be more interesting.

There shouldn't be any negative impact to women's sports from this, and there's likely to be a positive impact. This is a unique case where the usual arguments against trans (or cis male or other) inclusion infringing on the rights of women don't seem to apply. So this gets my stamp of approval.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind combining both sexes in singles into one division, and just limiting the jumps to triples.

I suspect the end result of that would be more women 1) quitting the sport because they have no chance, and 2) doing more dangerous jumps, and thus injuring themselves and leaving the sport. Very few women have reliable triple axels, so I suspect a field of 30 at Worlds would comprise of 20-25 men, with women predominantly from countries that don't have men. Maybe we'd have 1 woman in the top 10 and 2-3 in the top 24 (assuming Russia eventually gets allowed back and didn't obtain their advantage from doping; otherwise, could be 0). The only way I could see this working is if jump POINTS, rather than boxes, were limited. But then what's the point of having a sport? You'd also have to figure out what limits would apply at lower levels, because few girls/women would be likely to make it through qualification competitions in mixed groups without limits that restrict jumps to only those that can commonly be done by both women and men at that level. We'd probably end up with senior women sandbagging as juniors, etc., etc.

 

[sap5]

Net-net, this is a good thing, especially given the gender imbalance in pairs and dance, with many more women than men in the sport - women who, to this point, have been limited by lack of male partners. The benefit will be overwhelmingly at lower levels and help to keep people (predominantly girls/women) in the sport longer.

At the elite level, I suspect this will make little difference. I think it would be hard for male-male or female-female partnerships to succeed at the elite level, especially in pairs. The only real advantage a male-male pair team would have is on side-by-side jumps, but that would be negated by so many other elements behind harder. Male-male dance might be more interesting.

There shouldn't be any negative impact to women's sports from this, and there's likely to be a positive impact. This is a unique case where the usual arguments against trans (or cis male or other) inclusion infringing on the rights of women don't seem to apply. So this gets my stamp of approval.



I suspect the end result of that would be more women 1) quitting the sport because they have no chance, and 2) doing more dangerous jumps, and thus injuring themselves and leaving the sport. Very few women have reliable triple axels, so I suspect a field of 30 at Worlds would comprise of 20-25 men, with women predominantly from countries that don't have men. Maybe we'd have 1 woman in the top 10 and 2-3 in the top 24 (assuming Russia eventually gets allowed back and didn't obtain their advantage from doping; otherwise, could be 0). The only way I could see this working is if jump POINTS, rather than boxes, were limited. But then what's the point of having a sport? You'd also have to figure out what limits would apply at lower levels, because few girls/women would be likely to make it through qualification competitions in mixed groups without limits that restrict jumps to only those that can commonly be done by both women and men at that level. We'd probably end up with senior women sandbagging as juniors, etc., etc.

I don't find jumps to be that interesting to watch, beyond a point, so I wouldn't mind the jumps to be restricted to only those that could be commonly be done by both men and women. Hopefully the focus would then switch to all the other aspects of singles skating beyond jumps.

 

[aussieSKATES]

But teams could do that now anyway. There hasn't been anything stopping the formation of a team that has a larger woman and a smaller man, where the woman is the main lifting partner and the man the one who is lifted.

Back in the day when Canada's Tracy Wilson was being considered as a potential dance partner for Robert McCall, McCall said he would wear lifts in his boots to offset the small height difference between then. In fact, he added, that some of the Russian teams had been doing that for years.

Back in the 1960s, Debbie Wilkes actually outgrew Guy Revell during their six year partnership. Not that she ever lifted him, but she was a good two inches taller by the time they got to the 1964 Olympic Games. These days with the physical demands placed on pairs, it is unlikely that their pairing would have survived Wilkes growth.

 

[overedge]

But teams could do that now anyway. There hasn't been anything stopping the formation of a team that has a larger woman and a smaller man, where the woman is the main lifting partner and the man the one who is lifted.

The rules are stopping them. The ISU rules for Pairs say specifically that the man does the lifting in pairs lifts and the throwing in throw jumps. https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/...0-tp-handbook-pair-skating-2020-21-final/file

 

[sap5]

The rules are stopping them. The ISU rules for Pairs say specifically that the man does the lifting in pairs lifts and the throwing in throw jumps. https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/...0-tp-handbook-pair-skating-2020-21-final/file

Sorry— I was thinking of ice dance, which I don’t think has that rule?

 

[overedge]

Sorry— I was thinking of ice dance, which I don’t think has that rule?

You're right. The ISU ice dance rules use the terms "lifting partner" and "lifted partner" https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/...60-handbook-for-technical-panels-2022-23/file

 

[VGThuy]

But teams could do that now anyway. There hasn't been anything stopping the formation of a team that has a larger woman and a smaller man, where the woman is the main lifting partner and the man the one who is lifted.

First, I’d say culture and lack of institutional outreach to encourage those types of formations has been stopping them. There’s probably still a fear that these kinds of teams won’t do well. And right now we’re still in the traditional mindset that female skaters have to look one way and male skaters have to look another in ice dance. Look at all the comments this season and last about the short statures of Marco Fabbri, Jean-Luc Baker, and Michael Parsons.

Second, even if the rules say “lifting partner” and “lifted partner”, the rest of the handbook clearly say “woman” and “man”. The element abbreviations even say that. Plus, wasn’t it only last season where they changed the rule that forced women ice dancers to wear a skirt? Not dating men couldn’t wear dresses/skirts, but given the totality of everything, it’s still very much in the man/woman mold where the man leads the dance. Plus, I think ice dance handbook doesn’t use gender in the specific context of lifts thanks to the likes of Marina Anissina and Sinead Kerr where the woman lifted the man at times. I don’t the ISU would really allow a same-sex or perceived same-sex couple to compete in their sanctioned competitions.