ISU Statement on Russia's war against Ukraine - Participation in international competitions of Skaters and Officials from Russia and Belarus

[On My Own]

If she doesn’t need this citizenship now, if her actions discredit Lithuania, then why can’t Lithuania return the status quo?

There is no evidence that she doesn't "need" the citizenship - as you yourself say, EU citizenship is more valuable than the Russian one.

My question is easy - is Lithuania a democracy? Then they better be tolerant to difference in opinions. Fine her all you want, but this is akin to exilement, and makes an absolute farce of the concept. What they're doing is no better than Russia and China.

 

[airgelaal]

Let's see

Naturalisation
A person can be granted Lithuanian citizenship if he:

1. Has been residing in the territory of Lithuania for the last 10 years;

2. Has the right to habitually reside in the territory of Lithuania;

3. Has passed the examination in the state language;

4. Has passed the examination in the basic provisions of the Constitution of the Republic of Lithuania;

5. Has a legal source of income;

6. Is a stateless person or notifies in writing of his will to renounce citizenship of another state held by him;

7. Meets other requirements laid down in the Law on Citizenship of the Republic of Lithuania.

Margarita, as I remember, had a different case

Acquisition of Lithuanian Citizenship by Way of Exception

The citizenship is granted by the president of the Republic of Lithuania.

I am sure that Margarita would not have been able to obtain citizenship in the usual way. I don’t know what the mood of ordinary Lithuanians is, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they were outraged by this situation. An exception was made for her; she does not participate in the life of the country and at the same time disgraces the state. In my opinion, the answer is more than obvious.

 

[Rainbow]

There is no evidence that she doesn't "need" the citizenship - as you yourself say, EU citizenship is more valuable than the Russian one.

My question is easy - is Lithuania a democracy? Then they better be tolerant to difference in opinions. Fine her all you want, but this is akin to exilement, and makes an absolute farce of the concept. What they're doing is no better than Russia and China.

Even in democracies there a regulations in place to permit a state to rewoke citizenship. In Germay e.g., if you are part of a terrorist organisation abroad or wilful deception, when you obtained the citizenship. In March Lithuania adopted a law that allows the revocation of the citizenship of individuals who have been granted Lithuanian passports for outstanding contributions to the country's culture and sports but whose actions pose a threat to the Baltic state's national security. Drobiazko was invited to a hearing by the deciding body, but chose not to to attend. It looks like there was a chance of avoiding losing the citizenship, had she been inclined to reassure the country of her allegiance. She chose not to. Instead she published an open letter stating that they wanted to bring culture of light and good into the world. By cashing in on Navkas shows? They took part in the shows after Navka was placed on the EU sanctioned list. They must have known that. I have no sympathy.

 

[Rainbow]

It would be unforgivable if Drobiazko citizenship is revoked. Unforgivable.

How is it unforgivable to follow state laws? Follow the rules in place, you keep your citizenship.

 

[On My Own]

Even in democracies there a regulations in place to permit a state to rewoke citizenship. In Germay e.g., if you are part of a terrorist organisation abroad or wilful deception, when you obtained the citizenship. In March Lithuania adopted a law that allows the revocation of the citizenship of individuals who have been granted Lithuanian passports for outstanding contributions to the country's culture and sports but whose actions pose a threat to the Baltic state's national security.

I wasn't aware that participating in an ice show is similar to being part of a terrorist organization or is a threat to national security.

Laws and their interpretation are open to criticism.

I am with the people who are uneasy with this. Should Viktor Petrenko be kicked out of the US next?

 

[caseyedwards]

Let me remind you that this is not about Margarita’s views. She worked for Navka. For a person who is under EU sanctions. Thus, she received money from the russian budget. Margarita simply chose money. If she had refused to participate in the show, I think the issue would have been resolved. But money is more important, yes.

Lithuania is not Ukraine. They are saying she is committing crimes against Lithuania when she doesn’t support Ukraine but that’s not anything against Lithuania

 

[PRlady]

Much as it kills me, I have to agree. Lithuania is not at war with Russia. Neither is the US. It’s distasteful if naturalized Lithuanian or American citizens support Putin, but if I can’t kick Tucker Carlson out, then any naturalized Russian who loves Putin (and I met one at my rink with a big ducking Z on her skate bag) is likewise still a citizen.

 

[airgelaal]

Much as it kills me, I have to agree. Lithuania is not at war with Russia. Neither is the US. It’s distasteful if naturalized Lithuanian or American citizens support Putin, but if I can’t kick Tucker Carlson out, then any naturalized Russian who loves Putin (and I met one at my rink with a big ducking Z on her skate bag) is likewise still a citizen.

If Ukraine acted like Lithuania does now, then there would be no war. When the war starts, it will be too late.
Let me remind you that it is russia that likes to "protect" russians in other countries. Therefore, russian citizens who support putin threaten the national security of Lithuania.

 

[airgelaal]

In my opinion, Margarita’s actions threaten ordinary people much more than the actions of the government. For example, now Allison Reed can definitely forget about Lithuanian citizenship. And I am sure that it will now be much more difficult for many others to obtain such citizenship.

 

[PRlady]

In my opinion, Margarita’s actions threaten ordinary people much more than the actions of the government. For example, now Allison Reed can definitely forget about Lithuanian citizenship. And I am sure that it will now be much more difficult for many others to obtain such citizenship.

I agree with this. And Litvaks know Ukraine is their front line. I bow out, I have enough trouble with my own two countries’ decisions.

 

[Rainbow]

I wasn't aware that participating in an ice show is similar to being part of a terrorist organization or is a threat to national security.

Laws and their interpretation are open to criticism.

I am with the people who are uneasy with this. Should Viktor Petrenko be kicked out of the US next?

See, that`s a matter of definition. The shows are at least in part financed by the russian federal budget, arguably with the intend of state propaganda. State propanda that Drobiazko thus supports. Drobiazko has made it clear in her open letter, that she does not intend to stop taking part in that, even after the new regulations and EU sanctions were in place. Moreover she wrote the letter in Russian. Show some respect and use the official language of Lithuania (there`s only the one) if you want to win public opinion and are really invested in keeping the citizenship.

With regard to your example: That`s comparing apples to oranges. Drobiazko obtained her citizenship by decree for her merits in sport and for promoting the country's name. In general, when Drobiazko took the citizenship, she made a commitment and most importantly took an oath of allegiance to Lithuania. That includes committing yourself to defending the independence of Lithuania. This is clearly at odds with performing in Navkas shows.

I understand the uneasyness, but in this case it seems to me, that Drobiazko wasn`t all that invested in keeping the citizenship and needlessly provoked the deciding body with her own actions and words. At the very least, show up for the hearing.

 

[Vagabond]

@Hedwig Revocation

 

[marbri]

I was tagged to this thread from another and will just drop this here for the moment (I just quickly scanned through the latest posts to see why ):

President strips Russian ice dancer Drobiazko of Lithuanian citizenship

Lithuanian President Gitanas Nausėda on Friday signed a decree on stripping Russian ice dancer Margarita Drobiazko of he...

www.lrt.lt

Earlier this year, the Lithuanian parliament amended the Law on Citizenship to allow revoking the citizenship of a dual citizen, if the person publicly expresses support for a state that poses a threat to Lithuania or its allies’ security interests.

And this article from 2019, again at a quick glance, might suggest this is not without precedent in the EU:

Revoking citizenship: How it works across the EU – DW – 03/05/2019

Former fighters for the Islamic State are trying to return to their countries of origin. Germany is one country seeking ways to cancel passports. DW looks at how EU countries can strip citizens of their nationality.

www.dw.com

 

[MacMadame]

Wait, am I missing something, is she not still married to Povilas? I would assume he would return to Lithuania to see family, would not his wife accompany him, at least some times?

There is no reason she can't visit Lithuania the same way any other non-citizen does.

 

[Maximillian]

There is no reason she can't visit Lithuania the same way any other non-citizen does.

My question was in regard to @Hedwig's post that she hadn't set foot in Lithuania since she finished her ice dance career, which presumes that she has no ties to the country, which, considering her husband of 20+ years is a native is unlikely.

 

[Tesla]

If her Lithuanian citizenship were that important to her, she would have gone back to Lithuania for the hearing.

 

[MacMadame]

My question was in regard to @Hedwig's post that she hadn't set foot in Lithuania since she finished her ice dance career, which presumes that she has no ties to the country, which, considering her husband of 20+ years is a native is unlikely.

He lives in Russia too though.

 

[caseyedwards]

They both loved Lithuania and were always in Lithuania

Margarita Drobiazko and Povilas Vanagas organized a different format ice show in Kaunas​

Author: Lenzői.lt
Published: 2019-12-12 21:48

Already this week, Margarita Drobiazko and Povilas Vanagas present a new format ice show "Champions" in three Lithuanian cities. On December 12, they gave their performance to the people of Kaunas.​

Now they seem to be banished and banned forever and will likely not even be allowed at euros in Lithuania

Drobiazko ir Vanagas neatvyks į Europos dailiojo čiuožimo čempionatą Kaune

Viena tituluočiausių Lietuvai atstovavusių šokėjų ant ledo porų Povilas Vanagas ir Margarita Drobiazko į Europos dailioj...

www-lrt-lt.translate.goog

 

[Maximillian]

He lives in Russia too though.

No, I know. Again, it was not that they lived in Lithuania, but @Hewig said that Margarita probably had not set foot on Lithuanian soil since they finished competing. To which I responded, considering Povilas is a native and undoubtedly has friends and family there, the likelihood of her not having been to Lithuania in nearly 20 years is pretty low.

 

[Hedwig]

No, I know. Again, it was not that they lived in Lithuania, but @Hewig said that Margarita probably had not set foot on Lithuanian soil since they finished competing. To which I responded, considering Povilas is a native and undoubtedly has friends and family there, the likelihood of her not having been to Lithuania in nearly 20 years is pretty low.

I am not privy to her travelling nor interested in it. But I stand by what I said that she will not be interested in living in Lithuania nor in the citizenship (apart from it easing her travel to other countries since a Russian passport is not worth much at the moment), so I don't really see why she should have the honor of citizenship to a country she does not give a feck about.

(and from other reports up thread she could have gone to the hearing but was not interested anyway so I guess other people care more about her citizenship than she does)

This has been an interesting debate nonetheless - and so good to see that we can have a civil debate here about a very emotional topic. On Twitter or Facebook, this would have exploded in 4 seconds

 

[Private Citizen]

The reason is that if someone is your citizen, that's not a conditional privilege. It's for life. Revoking passports for political views (or even crimes, as in the case of Shamima Begum in the UK) cheapens the value of everyone's passport and weakens people's bond to the state they rely on for safety and the provision of public services.

I would agree with you re: people who are citizens of only one country. Leaving a natural-born citizen stateless is unacceptable, and the law says that in most countries (including the UK).

I think the situation is different for people who have multiple citizenships (of which I am one). We absolutely do have conditional privilege. I can leave the UK, go to one of my other countries or to an EU-country, and the UK will never have any type of jurisdiction over me. I see my situation as very different than that of people who are UK-only citizens and have no choice but to rely on the British government. Dual citizenship is sometimes problematic, and Drobiazko's citizenship is evidence of that.

Shamima Begum is an interesting case because she was technically entitled to Bangladeshi citizenship. Those arguing to strip her of her natural-born British citizenship made the argument that she would not be stateless. It was not a clear-cut case, though I lean toward your / Jacob Rees-Mogg's view that she would've been practically stateless. The Drobiazko situation is not ambiguous. She is a Russian citizen, and there's no argument that she would left stateless.

Turning naturalised citizens into an underclass whose citizenship depends on their political correctness threatens the quality of civic life in your country and will eventually undermine the value of 'real' citizens' passports as well.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn06820/ It has always been the case in the UK. I support the law, though it should be used in extremely rare circumstances. In this instance, I think Drobiazko is guilty of a bit more than lack of "political correctness." She is earning her living in an ice show that's run by someone sanctioned by the EU (and the US), and she is married to someone who has had a key role in the illegal invasion of Ukraine. In my view, she's openly associating with and taking money from a war criminal family. That's grounds enough for me.

Again, a passport is not a joke. It guarantees that some government somewhere has an obligation to you. You're also obligated to follow its laws and if you break them you can be subject to penalties like prison, property seizure and even execution, if that's what the law says.

For citizens of one country, yes. For dual citizens, I'm not sure. Using my own case, the UK has extremely limited extraterritorial rights over me if I am in the US or even the EU.

Lithuania should have been more judicious before they naturalised Drobiazko; once you give someone a passport, you should never be able to take it back.

Agree with the first half; don't agree with the second half. It was clearly disclosed to me at the time I applied for British citizenship that my passport and/or citizenship could be revoked for serious reasons.

Then fine her double the amount she made. Punish economic sins economically. There are always acceptable punishments for breaching sanctions.

How can Lithuania enforce the fine? Lithuania has ZERO recourse against her while she is in Russia. And the US is practically the only country that requires nonresident citizens to file tax returns, so Lithuania isn't seeing a penny from her and never will. Again, they have no extraterritorial rights. Stripping her of her citizenship is pretty much the only thing they can do.

 

[PRlady]

I would agree with you re: people who are citizens of only one country. Leaving a natural-born citizen stateless is unacceptable, and the law says that in most countries (including the UK).

I think the situation is different for people who have multiple citizenships (of which I am one). We absolutely do have conditional privilege. I can leave the UK, go to one of my other countries or to an EU-country, and the UK will never have any type of jurisdiction over me. I see my situation as very different than that of people who are UK-only citizens and have no choice but to rely on the British government. Dual citizenship is sometimes problematic, and Drobiazko's citizenship is evidence of that.

Shamima Begum is an interesting case because she was technically entitled to Bangladeshi citizenship. Those arguing to strip her of her natural-born British citizenship made the argument that she would not be stateless. It was not a clear-cut case, though I lean toward your / Jacob Rees-Mogg's view that she would've been practically stateless. The Drobiazko situation is not ambiguous. She is a Russian citizen, and there's no argument that she would left stateless.



https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn06820/ It has always been the case in the UK. I support the law, though it should be used in extremely rare circumstances. In this instance, I think Drobiazko is guilty of a bit more than lack of "political correctness." She is earning her living in an ice show that's run by someone sanctioned by the EU (and the US), and she is married to someone who has had a key role in the illegal invasion of Ukraine. In my view, she's openly associating with and taking money from a war criminal family. That's grounds enough for me.



For citizens of one country, yes. For dual citizens, I'm not sure. Using my own case, the UK has extremely limited extraterritorial rights over me if I am in the US or even the EU.



Agree with the first half; don't agree with the second half. It was clearly disclosed to me at the time I applied for British citizenship that my passport and/or citizenship could be revoked for serious reasons.



How can Lithuania enforce the fine? Lithuania has ZERO recourse against her while she is in Russia. And the US is practically the only country that requires nonresident citizens to file tax returns, so Lithuania isn't seeing a penny from her and never will. Again, they have no extraterritorial rights. Stripping her of her citizenship is pretty much the only thing they can do.

Oh yeah. As an American I forgot that Lithuania doesn’t automatically have a hand in her pocket. (Crap, if I go make money in California for a week I’m supposed to pay them state tax on it!) If she has no property there to confiscate, they have no recourse.

 

[MacMadame]

To which I responded, considering Povilas is a native and undoubtedly has friends and family there, the likelihood of her not having been to Lithuania in nearly 20 years is pretty low.

I don't see how we can know. I have family I haven't seen in decades and they weren't extended family either. Plus, some of my family only visit me. I don't visit them.

Families are complicated and living arrangements can be as well.

 

[Mafke]

russia that likes to "protect" russians in other countries

Name a country with a post-Soviet russian minority that's happy about that.... I dare you. The Baltics have had a very hard time with them with their reluctance to even do basic things like learn the new official language and their tendency to think of Balts as nazis...

I dont' know enough of the specifics of this particular case to have a strong opinion but that's part of the broader political background.

 

[caseyedwards]

Name a country with a post-Soviet russian minority that's happy about that.... I dare you. The Baltics have had a very hard time with them with their reluctance to even do basic things like learn the new official language and their tendency to think of Balts as nazis...

I dont' know enough of the specifics of this particular case to have a strong opinion but that's part of the broader political background.

I don’t recall any problems with Kazakhstan and all it’s Russians

 

[Maximillian]

Wrong thread

 

[Mafke]

don’t recall any problems with Kazakhstan and all it’s Russians

a little off-topic, but.... Speak much Kazakh? I had a group of (ethnic Kazakh) students last year. They knew russian but didn't care about it and were very anxious for Kazakh to take over more domestic functions... If Kazakhs start flexing their language I don't see good relations between the two groups....

 

[airgelaal]

They were probably forced too

https://twitter.com/x/status/1705582050416238657

 

[Vagabond]

"But they have no other way to make a living."

 

[Karen-W]

"But they have no other way to make a living."

LOL - that's because the Russian economy is tanking...