Keeping Track of Criminal Cases & SafeSport Suspensions in Skating

[tony]

Okay. So the rest of your names was about rape and SA assault ad well and all proven wrong? That still does not change the propabilities.

Eleanor Williams jailed over false rape claims - BBC News

The judge said Eleanor Williams' claims she was trafficked by an Asian gang were "complete fiction".

www.bbc.com

So my thought remains- being vigilante and a keyboard warrior and all of the above every single time a claim comes out, whether it’s rape, attacks, racism, whatever, doesn’t automatically mean that said person is guilty or that it’s going to help a ‘legal system’ process in the end. Jussie Smollett’s case can be read about here:

Jussie Smollett hate crime hoax - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The birdwatcher case is here:

Central Park birdwatching incident - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[once_upon]

Rape is rape is rape. It's rarely a single event where the rapist discovers that it was just a loss of responsible decision making because of drinking and has completely changed who he is.

It's NEVER a "she made me do it" by being intoxicated herself, or being in a compromising situation.

It is always a perp taking an action that is harmful/criminal.

I have a difficult time believing that this incidence has only been known since 3 weeks or 3 months ago. I think everyone was wanting to sweep it under the rug, as all rapists want to do. And it wasnt.

I don't know the answer, but stop pretending that a night of drinking takes away the responsibility of the rapist. Stop pretending it was only one incident.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

Rape is rape is rape. It's rarely a single event where the rapist discovers that it was just a loss of responsible decision making because of drinking and has completely changed who he is.

It's NEVER a "she made me do it" by being intoxicated herself, or being in a compromising situation.

It is always a perp taking an action that is harmful/criminal.

I have a difficult time believing that this incidence has only been known since 3 weeks or 3 months ago. I think everyone was wanting to sweep it under the rug, as all rapists want to do. And it wasnt.

I don't know the answer, but stop pretending that a night of drinking takes away the responsibility of the rapist. Stop pretending it was only one incident.

I'm not sure how any can read the horrifying details in the Brennan article and think what is alleged to have happened is some kind of "drunken mistake." In Canada, this could entail up to a 10-year sentence.

 

[overedge]

Another factor in this is that men in pairs and ice dance IME tend to be treated more leniently because there are relatively fewer of them. Women know that it will be pretty easy for their male pairs or dance partner to find another partner, so they may put up with poor behaviour just to keep the partnership going (NOTE that I am not saying that this is what Laurence has done or is doing, just that it generally can happen).

Also, IME again, pairs and dance guys tend to have a bit of macho swagger, partly because of the gender roles in the sport. Some of them take it a little too much to heart, and take advantage of knowing they're "the guy" and that they can't easily be replaced.

If Sorensen was a singles skater, the dynamics around how to address this situation would be quite different IMO.

 

[PRlady]

Another factor in this is that men in pairs and ice dance IME tend to be treated more leniently because there are relatively fewer of them. Women know that it will be pretty easy for their male pairs or dance partner to find another partner, so they may put up with poor behaviour just to keep the partnership going (NOTE that I am not saying that this is what Laurence has done or is doing, just that it generally can happen).

Also, IME again, pairs and dance guys tend to have a bit of macho swagger, partly because of the gender roles in the sport. Some of them take it a little too much to heart, and take advantage of knowing they're "the guy" and that they can't easily be replaced.

If Sorensen was a singles skater, the dynamics around how to address this situation would be quite different IMO.

This is true. It also seems to me that the percentage of straight men among pairs and dance guys is higher, and while there are gay men who rape other males, the incidence at least of reported incidents is much lower than heterosexual male/female rape.

 

[Hedwig]

I really don’t know what someone who claimed was racially assaulted or Israel conflict now has to do with rape and I don’t want to respond to these things that have nothing to do with the case at hand any more.

All women I know have had had some form of sexual assault in their lifes. Rape of course being the worst. So few ever report it. All that do get some kind of backlash. I have had fecking enough of this shit and anyone who even tries to diminish it. And this is no „innocent until proven guilty“ kind of shit. We are no lawyers. We can read statistics. We only need to look in our life and that of our female friends. And we are furious that THIS IS STILL HAPPENING to all of us.

 

[chameleonster]

Why do people keep bringing up completely unrelated topics to distract from the real issue at hand, that being the extremely serious allegation of a violent rape that could not remotely fall under the realm of "missed signals" or something like that.

Also when it comes to how ice dance men is favored, Sorensen himself acknowledged it in the article that made the victim decide to come forwards.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

Here’s a recent case of a Canadian gymnastics coach (and his wife!) who was banned for life for sexual abuse despite not being criminally convicted in the courts. Remember, there's no possibility of any criminal convictions in the NS situation. But ensuring the safety of women and girls in sport doesn't require the same burden of proof as would be required when deciding to send someone to prison.
ETA: not to mention boys as what happened to Sheldon Kennedy in junior hockey was also horrific. Sheldon won the Battle of Blades with Kaitlyn Weaver (who retweeted Ashley Wagner's post supporting survivors.)

 

[fsfann]

And yet, you are saying that one little "mistake" should be overlooked because of a possible night of drinking, should not be held against someone as it might destroy their lives.

It appears responsibility and being held to behavior standards doesn't hold in this case for yoy.

Just because he might be a winner, he is allowed to do anything he wants. He and others can't cope when the real world slaps them in the face.

That's not at all what I'm saying, but carry on if you wish.

My point was that whether or not any person who is accused of one (very bad) moment should be deemed to be guilty and fired from their job without any investigation. That's my point. If a bunch of other people come forward, then It hink the case against him is certainly strengthened. But I do feel there is a difference between the two.

 

[once_upon]

Well you may not live in an employment at will state or country, but yeah one bad moment gets you fired in a lot of places.


But sure go ahead with this "one bad moment brought on by alcohol" BS.

 

[Vagabond]

This is true. It also seems to me that the percentage of straight men among pairs and dance guys is higher, and while there are gay men who rape other males, the incidence at least of reported incidents is much lower than heterosexual male/female rape.

Wow! I almost don't know where to begin on this.

According to this site, at least one in six men has been sexually abused or assaulted. This is not a trivial number.

Furthermore, men and boys who have been sexually assaulted are far less likely than women and girls to tell anyone, let alone report it to law enforcement.

Rape Myths - Blue Sky Centre

blueskycentre.org.uk

Rape and sexual assault are about power and violence, not sex. The majority of sexual assaults are planned carefully and are not committed because of uncontrollable sexual urges.

Male Victims

Men can be victims of violence and sexual abuse. See this information regarding male survivors of assault and the special cultural issues they face.

uncw.edu

Myth: Only gay men sexually assault other men. Reality: Most men who sexually assault other men identify themselves as heterosexual. This fact helps to highlight another reality -- that sexual assault is about violence, anger, and control over another person, not lust or sexual attraction.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

But I do feel there is a difference between the two.

Not for the victim.

 

[canbelto]

That's not at all what I'm saying, but carry on if you wish.

My point was that whether or not any person who is accused of one (very bad) moment should be deemed to be guilty and fired from their job without any investigation. That's my point. If a bunch of other people come forward, then It hink the case against him is certainly strengthened. But I do feel there is a difference between the two.

One (very bad) moment? Rape is not one (very bad) moment. Rape is a serious crime and it's quite frankly disgusting that you think it's not reflective of who the person is as a whole.

The other thing to remember is there are very few false accusations of rape or sexual assault. The people trying to "whatabout Jussie Smollett" are really trying to distract from the fact that if there is an accusation of sexual assault, it is overwhelmingly true. Jussie Smollett is a different case -- he never accused anyone of sexual assault. He was just a disgusting attention whore.

 

[Hedwig]

That's not at all what I'm saying, but carry on if you wish.

My point was that whether or not any person who is accused of one (very bad) moment should be deemed to be guilty and fired from their job without any investigation. That's my point. If a bunch of other people come forward, then It hink the case against him is certainly strengthened. But I do feel there is a difference between the two.

I disagreed with you about possibly everything today but I agree here. If someone is accused of a bad thing he or she should not automatically lose everything. That goes without saying.

But the difference here is that there is not someone accused of- say- robbery but of a very specific crime where we have not only a very believable account from the victim but also statistics in proving that it is very unlikely that the account is false.
And examples of organizations suspending employment in case of similar accusations since the protection of possible victims is more important. So yes, in this case, employment and everything else should cease IMO.

 

[MacMadame]

I dont know half of the names you are pulling but afaik Biden was not accused of sexual assualt (his name I do know) and here it is not about any crime but about rape and here it is universally acknowledged that the rate of „false positives“ is minuscule- so you are comparing apples with oranges.

Biden was accused of being "handsy" which he absolutely was. He did acknowledge and apologize for that. I'm not sure if that was enough but he didn't do it to me so it's not up to me to forgive him but for the women he was overly familiar with. (You don't have to like someone to want them to be President, btw.)

But he was then also accused of an actual sexual assault but that accusation almost immediately fell apart similar to the Jesse Smollett case.

f

Eleanor Williams jailed over false rape claims - BBC News

The judge said Eleanor Williams' claims she was trafficked by an Asian gang were "complete fiction".

www.bbc.com

So my thought remains- being vigilante and a keyboard warrior and all of the above every single time a claim comes out, whether it’s rape, attacks, racism, whatever, doesn’t automatically mean that said person is guilty or that it’s going to help a ‘legal system’ process in the end. Jussie Smollett’s case can be read about here:

Jussie Smollett hate crime hoax - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The birdwatcher case is here:

Central Park birdwatching incident - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

First of all, only one of those cases has anything to do with sexual assault making the rest irrelevant to the situation where SA is rarely reported and even more rarely reported falsly. Even the case where there was a false report doesn't negate the fact that such reports are exceedingly rare.

If you want to wait for some sort of investigation to have an opinion, go right ahead. But there is no reason everyone else has to do that. When it comes to SA, I will always start from a position of believing the victim. It may not end that way once there is an investigation but there isn't a case in skating where an investigation exonerated a rapist as far as I know. So I'm not going to hold my breath.

In particular, when someone is accused who has regular access to children that access needs to be removed. Immediately.

If that makes me a "keyboard warrior" in your eyes, I can live with that.

 

[Sparks]

There is a lot to say about those cases...somewhere else. They are not relevant to this thread

 

[nikjil]

That's not at all what I'm saying, but carry on if you wish.

My point was that whether or not any person who is accused of one (very bad) moment should be deemed to be guilty and fired from their job without any investigation. That's my point. If a bunch of other people come forward, then It hink the case against him is certainly strengthened. But I do feel there is a difference between the two.

I’m think you are asking a sincere question so let me give a sincere answer. Yes, young men do stupid things, particularly when under the influence. However stupid “mistakes” can have lifelong consequences for others. Unfortunately, in rape cases people tend to minimize the trauma to the victim, while over-emphasizing the need to protect the perpetrator from the consequences of his actions. Would you feel the same way under this example (real case) a straight-A college student goes out drinking, not accustomed to alcohol he get plastered and starts arguing with another guy in the bar. He pulls out a penknife and through and while he doesn’t intend to really hurt the other guy, ends up stabbing him seriously hurting the man, causing permanent damage. Would you feel the same way? This was also a “mistake” that probably wouldn’t have happened if he had been sober. Is permanent physical pain more serious than psychological trauma to you?

 

[canbelto]

It makes me really ill when I see people in this thread thinking rape shouldn't ruin anyone's lives, when in fact lives do get ruined for much smaller infractions. For instance, people have done decades in prison for non-violent drug offenses.

 

[tony]

One (very bad) moment? Rape is not one (very bad) moment. Rape is a serious crime and it's quite frankly disgusting that you think it's not reflective of who the person is as a whole.

The other thing to remember is there are very few false accusations of rape or sexual assault. The people trying to "whatabout Jussie Smollett" are really trying to distract from the fact that if there is an accusation of sexual assault, it is overwhelmingly true. Jussie Smollett is a different case -- he never accused anyone of sexual assault. He was just a disgusting attention whore.

First of all, the people trying to whatabout is Jussie Smollett is me, and only me. The same person you belligerently proclaimed out here in the ‘open’ was a racist amongst other things because you simply didn’t like my reply to one of your opinions. So talking about accusing people falsely… look in the mirror. As someone in your profession, that type of childish ‘I don’t agree with you so let me throw out accusations’ is extremely, extremely dangerous.

Sexual assault is obviously a huge topic for women, but people being accused of anything in general (especially race-based and white people making claims against Black people, as we’ve seen) can have dire consequences on the accused party as well, including lengthy jail sentences and potentially even death. I do not agree with the suggestion that the rape or sexual assault may have been a ‘mistake’ that someone can grow from, for what that’s worth.

People can believe the unnamed victim 100% and I don’t find anything wrong with it. However, insisting on immediate action being put upon the defendant every single time- I don’t and won’t ever agree. I also wont ever agree to making everyone within their smaller and larger circles speak out against them or shun them publicly, and I certainly won’t agree to faceless, nameless social media profiles trolling and stating everything as matter of fact each time.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

It makes me really ill when I see people in this thread thinking rape shouldn't ruin anyone's lives, when in fact lives do get ruined for much smaller infractions. For instance, people have done decades in prison for non-violent drug offenses.

I'm betting I can guess the gender of most of the particular people you're referring to . Men need to step up and stop upholding rape culture and the patriarchy. And that goes double for the women upholding the same things.

 

[canbelto]

Also, no one is saying Sorensen needs to be carted off to the Tower of London based on this Safe Sport report. But he's not entitled to being a sponsored, competing member of Skate Canada. Accusations of such a serious nature in many professions (teaching, for one) usually mean a removal from the classroom and suspension without pay. It's not unreasonable to demand that Sorensen be suspended from competition.

 

[coppertop1]

Someone of these posts make me squirm. Ever wonder why victd don't come forward? This is why. Stop it

 

[tony]

I'm betting I can guess the gender of most of the particular people you're referring to . Men need to step up and stop upholding rape culture and the patriarchy. And that goes double for the women upholding the same things.

I might not be comprehending correctly but I think I’ve seen exactly one poster in total suggest anything of the sort. It’s difficult to follow when so many comments refer to seemingly specific posts, but they aren’t quoted. So I could be wrong.

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

@tony

Let me try this a different way. You keep talking about due process. There isn't any justice for women in today's version of due process. It's all stacked against women and biased for men. Due process is worthless until it includes justice.

 

[Prancer]

My point was that whether or not any person who is accused of one (very bad) moment should be deemed to be guilty and fired from their job without any investigation. That's my point. If a bunch of other people come forward, then It hink the case against him is certainly strengthened. But I do feel there is a difference between the two.

I agree that cases should be investigated before judgment is passed. Statistics do not apply to individuals and I find it disturbing that people are making the argument that they don't care if sometimes men's lives are destroyed by false reports because so many more women are harmed without justice. I don't understand that thinking and I think people might want to ponder the implications of that line of thought.

But the idea that one "moment" doesn't count? Or shouldn't? That other victims have to step forward for a report to be taken seriously? So if I accuse someone of beating me up or stealing from me, does that have credence only if other people come forward and say that the accused did it to them, too?

I don't understand that thinking, either. You are making the exact argument that Brock Turner's father made. Is that your intent?

 

[tony]

@tony

Let me try this a different way. You keep talking about due process. There isn't any justice for women in today's version of due process. It's all stacked against women and biased for men. Due process is worthless until it includes justice.

I’m not looking to bicker even further, but it’s stacked against the victim in general when it comes to sexual assault because yes, it does happen to men as well, and at an even higher rate in the LGBTQ community. So it doesn’t really need to be an us vs. them situation IMO when it’s a screwy situation for every true victim.

I can’t really change wanting more facts or details to emerge in situations before I go full-force into it. Maybe I’ve known too many liars or grown up in situations that showed me to err with caution. You can’t drastically alter each and every person’s life from the start IMO.

 

[fsfann]

I’m think you are asking a sincere question so let me give a sincere answer. Yes, young men do stupid things, particularly when under the influence. However stupid “mistakes” can have lifelong consequences for others. Unfortunately, in rape cases people tend to minimize the trauma to the victim, while over-emphasizing the need to protect the perpetrator from the consequences of his actions. Would you feel the same way under this example (real case) a straight-A college student goes out drinking, not accustomed to alcohol he get plastered and starts arguing with another guy in the bar. He pulls out a penknife and through and while he doesn’t intend to really hurt the other guy, ends up stabbing him seriously hurting the man, causing permanent damage. Would you feel the same way? This was also a “mistake” that probably wouldn’t have happened if he had been sober. Is permanent physical pain more serious than psychological trauma to you?

I agree with everything you said. The complicated part with the rape scenario (and general sexual assault) is that there is often no proof...especially if things happen so long after the fact. If there is a physical assault (such as something involving a knife for example) there is visible proof. That's why all of this is so very complicated.

I think it's important to believe victims, but I do have sympathy for people who are accused of things that they really have no way of defending themselves if they happen to be innocent..

Here in Canada there have been numerous rumours and innuendo about Justin Trudeau and his dismissal for assualting a female student at a school he taught at. (He was also accused of another assault where he has publicly said that she "experienced things differently" than he did). If we use the very same threshold that people are using for NS, then Trudeau should also be removed as PM immediately. He even has more than one accusation of this sort of behaviour. That's my point.

 

[once_upon]

As a mother of three sons, I can relate to the fear of false accusations.

However, those arguing the false accusations scenario are actually doing the boys will be boys defense of "one moment of time shouldn't ruin lives". To me that indicates they believe that the incident happened and are just excusing it.

 

[Sparks]

I think it's important to believe victims, but I do have sympathy for people who are accused of things that they really have no way of defending themselves if they happen to be innocent..

Every time someone says, I support/believe victims BUT...remember the but negates everything that came before

 

[fsfann]

I agree that cases should be investigated before judgment is passed. Statistics do not apply to individuals and I find it disturbing that people are making the argument that they don't care if sometimes men's lives are destroyed by false reports because so many more women are harmed without justice. I don't understand that thinking and I think people might want to ponder the implications of that line of thought.

But the idea that one "moment" doesn't count? Or shouldn't? That other victims have to step forward for a report to be taken seriously? So if I accuse someone of beating me up or stealing from me, does that have credence only if other people come forward and say that the accused did it to them, too?

I don't understand that thinking, either. You are making the exact argument that Brock Turner's father made. Is that your intent?

Good discussion here for sure. I definitely didn't mean to insinuate that a "one" moment shouldn't count. But I would say that a person who commits a single crime is different than someone who commits multiple, and repeated crimes over their victims. A hockey coach that abuses numerous boys over a 10 year period, grooming them, entertaining them at his home etc, is definitely different to me than a person who gets drunk and assaults (physical, sexual, etc) to another person.