Mark Mitchell: "Why would they come back to the rink?"

[skatingguy]

The criteria were similar in 2014, sans Challenger Series, which wasn't a thing yet. The silver medalist was not left off the team in 2014 when Wagner was put on: the bronze medalist was, and the silver medalist who went to Sochi had no senior international experience, only junior BOW.

So under the new rules, Edmunds wouldn't have been eligible for the Olympics and Nagasu would have gone, and the silver medalist would have been left off the team. Interesting.

 

[kwanfan1818]

So under the new rules, Edmunds wouldn't have been eligible for the Olympics and Nagasu would have gone, and the silver medalist would have been left off the team. Interesting.

I would say under the current interpretation of the rules, it might very well have gone that way. Especially since rumors at the time were that the selection was Gold, Wagner, and the last spot between Edmunds and Nagasu, who were very close in total points.

Another way of looking at the 2014 interpretation is that they wanted to send a third skater who had potential to be the future, and from that standpoint, Edmunds and Zhao fit the bill. (Edmunds wasn't considered for the TE, and it's unlikely Zhao will, if Rippon is healthy, and Chen doesn't want to do both.) But since no explanation was given in 2014, Miner could only go by what seemed to be the selection process.

That's the difficulty of trying to read the tea leaves with little info and small data sets and assuming no change in the approach.

 

[Willin]

I do think there is a legitimate criticism in that USFSA was obviously considering things beyond the obvious.
All they listed as factors was "results of events" - which is very vague. Does "results of events" mean the final placement, the BV each skater achieved (accounting for <, <<, and !/e), final point total, number of falls, etc.
When asked about Ross being left off after the fact, they mentioned a huge factor was his international scoring history and international scoring potential - neither of which were explicitly mentioned. In fact, most of us interpreted "results of events" to mean placement in those events, not the score sheets.

One of the things USA Gymnastics does well about their selection process is creating criteria for their athletes to follow. Some are very specific (highest start values at competition, highest execution scores at competition, consistency), while some are more vague ("world class presentation," "physical/competitive readiness," "ability to contribute to the team," and "professional attitude"). That gives USA Gymnastics ways to justify who they send while giving themselves some leeway to pick one athlete over another based on their own preferences. Of course, considering the recent scandals, one wonders if the leeway they gave themselves was to shut people up or encouraged athletes to train in an unsafe manner, but that's a different matter entirely - one that hopefully will never transfer over to USFSA. Based on the statement about the team selection, it does seem like USFSA uses similar criteria, even if they don't outright state it or directly observe it in training for weeks on end.

 

[skatingguy]

I would say under the current interpretation of the rules, it might very well have gone that way. Especially since rumors at the time were that the selection was Gold, Wagner, and the last spot between Edmunds and Nagasu, who were very close in total points.

But Edmunds didn't have the technical minimums from a senior international, so under the current (new) ISU rules she would have been ineligible for senior championship events that season. If Nagasu had gone the Olympics 2014, it would have completely changed the conversation for the past four years.

 

[VGThuy]

Wouldn't using the BOW now for 2013-2014 still make it reasonable to put Edmunds on the team over Mirai (ignoring the tech mins for senior) since Edmunds did make the JGPF? Mirai did get 3rd at Rostelecom, but that was about it. Edmunds' total score averages were better than Mirai's that season and that's with Edmunds doing junior competitions with junior element limits.

 

[overedge]

@Willin I agree that "results of events" is too vague - that's one of many problems with the selection criteria and how they are applied, but it's definitely a problem. And both point totals and placements need to be assessed in the context of the competition itself, e.g. placing third behind skaters such as Med or Kostner at a GP event is probably more of an accomplishment than placing third behind Suzie Snowflake and Zelda Zamboni at a B-level international in Nowhereistan.

 

[kwanfan1818]

But Edmunds didn't have the technical minimums from a senior international, so under the current (new) ISU rules she would have been ineligible for senior championship events that season. If Nagasu had gone the Olympics 2014, it would have completely changed the conversation for the past four years.

They might have sent her to a senior international right after JGPF under the current rules: she won it. Zhou didn't make JGPF last season, and he wasn't expect to kill it at Nationals. Although it was a stupid decision, IMO.

 

[bardtoob]

One of the things USA Gymnastics does well about their selection process is creating criteria for their athletes to follow.

I like that the gymnasts earn an invitation to compete in-house for berths closer to their major international competition.

A pool of skaters should be monitored daily until the last possible day paperwork should filed. If they are going to select a team, then select a team after repeated observations within close proximity to the event. Let the skaters prove or disprove flukes. Let consistent skaters prove they are or are not consistent. Have the coach share best practices.

 

[elka_sk8]

Wouldn't using the BOW now for 2013-2014 still make it reasonable to put Edmunds on the team over Mirai (ignoring the tech mins for senior) since Edmunds did make the JGPF? Mirai did get 3rd at Rostelecom, but that was about it. Edmunds' total score averages were better than Mirai's that season and that's with Edmunds doing junior competitions with junior element limits.

Regardless, I’m so glad Edmunds was sent in 2014. The “she should wait her turn” argument never made sense to me. So much can change in 4 years, and it did.

And it motivated Mirai to come back and up the ante. She’s never been my favorite but impressed with her perseverance and happy for her.

 

[Willin]

@bardtoob I like that in theory, and I think it would do a good amount to help the athletes get used to competition, but I think that the centralized training was also part of USA Gymnastics' downfall. Forcing all the athletes to be isolated, no parents allowed, media/outside cameras highly controlled, far from USOC HQ, entirely under the mercy of USA Gymnastics and their staff, fear of retaliation for bringing up any issues about that controlled environment, knowing that they would have to leave their dream behind to avoid getting into that environment... It's ripe for abuse.

Perhaps if USFSA holds a week-long winter intensive at the World Arena or something with healthy supervision it would be okay...

Personally, I prefer USA Ski & Snowboarding's qualifying system - it's designed to test physical stamina and psychological strength. It's a series of four competitions in six weeks that all prospective US Olympic athletes in freestyle skiing/snowboarding compete at - with top international competitors also invited. Only those who make one/two podiums are eligible to be named to the team. Unfortunately, for a number of reasons this isn't feasible for skating.

Maybe if they combine the two? That is, a three week-long camp at the World Arena/US Olympic training center with a "competition" every weekend, with Nationals happening two weeks after the end of the camp? Possibly free passes to the public as well so the skaters can get used to the environment of a cheering crowd?

 

[Marco]

Except, it's not beyond reason. Infact, many see this as a perfectly reasonable decision. I'm surprised Mark and Ross were under the impression that a high placement at nationals would earn a ticket to Olympics. One might hope this to be the case, but the criteria was clear. As much as I sympathise, I think a coach should be clearly informed about protocol and how to ensure selection for their student to the Olympic Games. It doesn't seem like MM was, which means he didn't do his job effectively. Sport can be cruel.

With all due respect, heading into Nationals, Ross was never a name that people commonly threw around as a contender for the Olympic team. I wonder how likely he felt he could make the team, even if he placed at Nationals. He was't top six in BOW for all US men.

If he felt like he could just podium there and get a spot, maybe he didn't pay much attention to what happened to the ladies in 2014. If he felt like he was lacking in BOW and needed to crush Nationals in a big way, it didn't quite happen for him to make a strong case.

I am interested to know if Team Ross had always been pacing to peak at Nationals whilst not caring for how he would skate or place at the fall internationals / GP, or he was simply not that consistent and this Nationals outing was a fluke.

Anyway, I hear (TSL? I forget) that the first two skaters picked were Nathan and Adam, so that means it came down to Ross, Vincent and Jason for the final spot. Going by how the Committee finally picked the team and their alternates, I think they went with BOW plus scoring potential, and didn't have much trust in Ross repeating his Nationals performances at either Olympics / Worlds (or that he wouldn't have placed as well as Vincent or Jason even if he did manage to repeat)

 

[caseyedwards]

Except, it's not beyond reason. Infact, many see this as a perfectly reasonable decision. I'm surprised Mark and Ross were under the impression that a high placement at nationals would earn a ticket to Olympics. One might hope this to be the case, but the criteria was clear. As much as I sympathise, I think a coach should be clearly informed about protocol and how to ensure selection for their student to the Olympic Games. It doesn't seem like MM was, which means he didn't do his job effectively. Sport can be cruel.

It was not clear. The weighting was nonexistent. Tier one is not weighted against the other tiers and the competitions in tier one aren’t weighted against each other. It’s a joke. It’s a cover for opinions.

 

[kwanfan1818]

If he felt like he could just podium there and get a spot, maybe he didn't pay much attention to what happened to the ladies in 2014.

You mean where the final spot was likely chosen between the silver and bronze medalist, and the silver medalist was sent?

 

[MacMadame]

Perhaps if USFSA holds a week-long winter intensive at the World Arena or something with healthy supervision it would be okay...

That sounds like Champs Camp to me.

 

[ChiquitaBanana]

I like that the gymnasts earn an invitation to compete in-house for berths closer to their major international competition.

A pool of skaters should be monitored daily until the last possible day paperwork should filed. If they are going to select a team, then select a team after repeated observations within close proximity to the event. Let the skaters prove or disprove flukes. Let consistent skaters prove they are or are not consistent. Have the coach share best practices.

This. Totally.

 

[Willin]

That sounds like Champs Camp to me.

Which is why I specified Winter - Champs Camp is in the summer, too long before the selection. Those who want a training camp want one up to the time of selection (Nationals).

Champs Camp is also not very much about training - yes there is skating and evaluation of programs - but there's also a lot of other things going on. I believe this includes interviews, media training, fluff piece filming, seminars on things relevant to athletes (sports psychology, nutrition), team building exercises, photo shoots, a physical exam, a nice party for the athletes, etc. - hardly a training camp since this is all packed into a span of three days. Helpful for the technical review maybe, not not what people are proposing.

 

[skateboy]

While I understand the body of work clause, I'm not so sure I appreciate it. Good results early in a season are not necessarily indicative of good results later on... in fact, even three months is like an eternity. There could be an argument for Nationals placements (in all nations) deciding Olympic teams (maybe Worlds, too):

Let's face it, every elite skater has dreamed of going to the Olympics, of being an Olympic champion: is any skater's dream more important than another's? At the Olympics, the pressure is major: it's now or never, there is no second chance. If Nationals provided that same pressure--now or never--as preparation for Olympics, the mindset of all the skaters at Nationals might be very different. The favorites would be forced to deliver, while the others (like Ross) would know that they still have a shot, if others falter. The ones that rise to the occasion would truly earn their spots, specifically because they demonstrate the required physical strength and mental toughness.

We all know that there are many examples of "favorites" crumbling under Olympic pressure, while there have been a fair share of lesser ranked skaters having a "Ross Miner" moment. (Paul Wylie, anyone?)

Of course, I realize that my opinion won't change a thing.

 

[tylersf]

Ageism is a factor in the "flight attendant" option. That is why I didn't mention it.
I really do feel badly for Mark Mitchell because what happened to him also happened to his student.
I would also be upset and consider options outside of skating. He has more options that I do. I don't have the looks to model unless they need an ugly person.
I needed college degrees to slide by and be sort of gainfully employed.

Surprised ‘flight attendant’ wasn’t thrown in there

 

[jlai]

Well i am not necessarily advocating for using only international results, but I also think that using nationals as a test for handling pressure at worlds arguments is flawed: if that is such a good test then why do we have skaters like J Abbott who peaked at nationals but couldn't repeat the feat at world or Olympics? Also do US judges judge their skaters the same way as ISU judges do including rotations and edge calls?

Also if ageism is a factor why choose Rippon who is older than Miner?

 

[tylersf]

Ageism is a factor in Mark Mitchell or anyone becoming a beginning flight attendant above the age of 30. Not Rippon over Minor.

Well i am not necessarily advocating for using only international results, but I also think that using nationals as a test for handling pressure at worlds arguments is flawed: if that is such a good test then why do we have skaters like J Abbott who peaked at nationals but couldn't repeat the feat at world or Olympics? Also do US judges judge their skaters the same way as ISU judges do including rotations and edge calls?

Also if ageism is a factor why choose Rippon who is older than Miner?

 

[Carolla5501]

Ageism is a factor in Mark Mitchell or anyone becoming a beginning flight attendant above the age of 30. Not Rippon over Minor.

Several years ago I met a new Flight Attendant on AA. She was in her 50's and was doing this as a 2nd career.....

 

[VGThuy]

The last few times I've flown, I've seen flight attendants of diverse ages, many of them older than in their thirties. This isn't Pan-Am circa 1960s.

 

[Aerobicidal]

The last few times I've flown, I've seen flight attendants of diverse ages, many of them older than in their thirties. This isn't Pan-Am circa 1960s.

Pan Am 1960s flight attendant would be a great concept for a skating program. The costume, with its white gloves, would inspire the ire of glove-hating FSUers. The music could be something like Esquivel, space age lounge pop exotica.

I think it would be a great program for Bradie Tennell--add some maturity and diversity to her Body of Work™.

 

[BittyBug]

Pan Am 1960s flight attendant would be a great concept for a skating program. The costume, with its white gloves, would inspire the ire of glove-hating FSUers. The music could be something like Esquivel, space age lounge pop exotica.

I think it would be a great program for Bradie Tennell--add some maturity and diversity to her Body of Work™.

A number of adult skaters have used this theme (individual and synchro).

 

[Aerobicidal]

A number of adult skaters have used this theme (individual and synchro).

Are you accusing me of reverse ageism?!?!?!?

 

[giselle23]

Except, it's not beyond reason. Infact, many see this as a perfectly reasonable decision. I'm surprised Mark and Ross were under the impression that a high placement at nationals would earn a ticket to Olympics. One might hope this to be the case, but the criteria was clear. As much as I sympathise, I think a coach should be clearly informed about protocol and how to ensure selection for their student to the Olympic Games. It doesn't seem like MM was, which means he didn't do his job effectively. Sport can be cruel.

The criteria isn't all that clear. A high placement at Nationals is in the same tier as a World medal. If Ashley had medaled at Worlds last year--even assuming she didn't have a GP medal--do you think she would have been left off of the team? I'm pretty sure the USFSA's intent is not to have coaches tell their skaters, you have no chance of making the Olympic team, even if you win this competition (or get a silver medal). They want Nationals to still be important and for skaters to try to skate their best.

 

[BittyBug]

Are you accusing me of reverse ageism?!?!?!?

LOL.

 

[Spiralgraph]

If this was a Pan Am flight attendant program from the 1960s, it would be a 1960s stewardess program.

 

[Taso]

If this was a Pan Am flight attendant program from the 1960s, it would be a 1960s stewardess program.

I'm not sure Bradie is really the skater best suited for that role...

 

[Aerobicidal]

I'm not sure Bradie is really the skater best suited for that role...

How about Hanyu, then? (minus the stewardess part, of course)