Ross Miner Out Of Olympic Team (OFFICIAL)

[caseyedwards]

So all the medals in all the other years and competitions are meaningless?

No because they mean worlds. Nationals aren’t an end to themselves! Nationals means worlds or Olympics and worlds and winning silver should mean something and it doesn’t and so it completely destroys the purpose of nationals.

 

[jiejie]

Now that is where Brennan should continue to dig - and dig like hell - applying pressure to USFS into releasing the names of the committee members.

Why? For what purpose? For you, Brennan, and others to harrass them? This isn't some sort of public trust/government muckraking operation, it's a private decision within an organization that has the right to do what it wants. Since the USFS isn't funded by taxpayers at any level, there is no duty to disclose.

 

[ZilphaK]

Was Miner not rewarded with a silver medal?

He was. And the Olympic Team is announced the next day. There is a a weighty and obvious, not just assumed connection between what goes on at Nationals and who makes the team. He skated his skate and was given scores that beat skaters who are now going ahead of him, based on things that have happened in the past. To me, that's accounting and parsing rule books. It's not why fans watch sports or what they expect. Not casual fans. And figure skating needs more fans, for sure. Not more shadowy number-crunching. Someone asked a question. I'm just answering it with my take on it.

 

[Lizziebeth]

Now that is where Brennan should continue to dig - and dig like hell - applying pressure to USFS into releasing the names of the committee members.

What purpose would it serve? No matter what they did, that committee was going to hear a lot of complaining.

 

[caseyedwards]

I was just reading about South Korea. They have an advisory national testing competition and a nationals. Now US only has a national testing competion.

 

[Dobre]

USFSA set the criteria. When they did, they changed the dynamic of the competition. They put pressure on every single athlete in every single competition. (And, boy, what a messy season that can make). Then by Nationals, the Olympic pressure was on the guys/ladies/pairs/dancers who had a body of work. If the pressure had been equally on everyone's shoulders, we might well have seen a different competition. I would prefer the latter myself. I have always thought head-to-head competition in the moment is the best way, even though--yes--it occasionally puts the U.S. at a disadvantage relative to a country like Japan that has selected its team on other criteria for years.

But you have to win with the rules & criteria you are given. So here we are . . . with a messy event in which some athletes who had everything on the line cracked and one man who didn't skated lights out. But bravo to Ross & Vincent & Nathan for skating strong at Nationals, and to Adam for making his argument throughout the season after an injury last year. And to Jason for playing a major role in earning the third U.S. men's spot both for the Olympics and for Worlds.

I do think Ross knew, heading into Nationals, that he had essentially no chance of making the team. Anyone who has read the U.S. men's thread over the past month knew it. Ross had had a shot at the beginning of the season, but he hadn't done enough during the GP to climb up like Bradie did. And, yet, Ross was happy last night. He was really, really happy. Maybe there was a certain amount of hope there. Who wouldn't hope? And of course, there has to be a certain amount of heartbreak today. But I think he was happy with how he skated beyond anything else last night. What a glorious moment he had!

I think she just wants drama any way she can get it. So she's creating it herself.

Which is why I've always disliked her skating commentary. Ever since her anti-Oksana/pro-Nancy yammering. This is how she sells her work. It makes her money. She isn't an unbiased reporter.

Major kudos to the guys thus far for how they have handled this very tough scenario.

 

[icie]

Except for the fact that Brown didn't earn the Worlds spot outright last year. I think the fact that Zhou was denied the opportunity to go to Worlds last year had to be taken into account.

Did Zhou have the needed points to qualify for Worlds last year?

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Because, for me, as a viewer and as a skating parent, every other competition is about what happens in the moment, and those moments are fleeting. It doesn't matter how you did in practice or the 6-minute warm-up. It doesn't matter how you did in the last competition. It's what you put out there on the ice, this time, against these competitors. You kill it in all your programs all year but miss Sectionals by .01, that's rough. But that's figure skating. You made Nationals last year and medaled, but didn't make it out of Sectionals this year, even though you're hitting jumps in every other competition that no other skaters are hitting? That's the fabled thrill of victory and the agony of defeat.

I've said this elsewhere, so I'll keep it short here. But what's gripping about watching sports is The Moment. The Moment when the underdog beats the favored one and is rewarded. The most fabled moment in all of sports is the USA team of rag-tag, no name hockey players beating the juggernaut Soviets at the 1980 Olympics. They lost to them the week before the start of the Olympics. Not just lost, were crushed. They only tied the highly-favored Swedes in the opening round. Why even allow them to play the 2nd-ranked team at all?

When they won it all, it was one of the most -- if not the most -- thrilling moments in sports history. It could have gone wrong a millions ways, a hundred times.

It's not a perfect analogy. Team sports and individual judged sports are different animals. But I think about why I watch sports, why many people watch sports. It's the antidote to knowing-the-ending in life and the hope of the surprise victory in spite of falling short so many other times. It's the #WeGetUp. Ross Miner might have been sent to the Olympics and bombed. Or, it could have been a highlight reel for the ages that would have inspired a few more kids to get on the ice. We'll never know.

This! I am all about putting it on the table when it matters.

Ross Miner has essentially been denied a moment, too.

I am almost reminded of the US Nationals from 1992, when Mitchell was bumped for Eldredge, and to a lesser extend, Wylie, a brilliant, but nervous and inconsistent international competitor.

Also, in 2002, there were essentially three skaters fighting for second and third in the ladies' division: Nikodinov, Hughes, and Cohen. Sarah was very close to missing the Olympic Team with her third place. Imagine if her moment in Salt Lake had never happened.

 

[caseyedwards]

USFSA set the criteria. When they did, they changed the dynamic of the competition. They put pressure on every single athlete in every single competition. (And, boy, what a messy season that can make). Then by Nationals, the Olympic pressure was on the guys/ladies/pairs/dancers who had a body of work. If the pressure had been equally on everyone's shoulders, we might well have seen a different competition. I would prefer the latter myself. I have always thought head-to-head competition in the moment is the best way, even though--yes--it occasionally puts the U.S. at a disadvantage relative to a country like Japan that has selected it's team on other criteria for years.

But you have to win with the rules & criteria you are given. So here we are . . . with a messy event in which some athletes who had everything on the line cracked and one man who didn't skated lights out. But bravo to Ross & Vincent & Nathan for skating strong at Nationals, and to Adam for making his argument throughout the season after an injury last year. And to Jason for playing a major role in earning the third U.S. men's spot both for the Olympics and for Worlds.

I do think Ross knew, heading into Nationals, that he had essentially no chance of making the team. Anyone who has read the U.S. men's thread over the past month knew it. Ross had had a shot at the beginning of the season, but he hadn't done enough during the GP to climb up like Bradie did. And, yet, Ross was happy last night. He was really, really happy. Maybe there was a certain amount of hope there. Who wouldn't hope? And of course, there has to be a certain amount of heartbreak today. But I think he was happy with how he skated beyond anything else last night. What a glorious moment he had!



Which is why I've always disliked her skating commentary. Ever since her anti-Oksana/pro-Nancy yammering. This is how she sells her work. It makes her money. She isn't an unbiased reporter.

Major kudos to the guys thus far for how they have handled this very tough scenario.

The criteria is just like ijs! It seeks to cover up plain old opinions with farcical claims of neutrality!

 

[skatfan]

Why? For what purpose? For you, Brennan, and others to harrass them? This isn't some sort of public trust/government muckraking operation, it's a private decision within an organization that has the right to do what it wants. Since the USFS isn't funded by taxpayers at any level, there is no duty to disclose.

Bigger sports federations than USFSA do disclose this stuff, as Phil Hersh has noted. Legally they don’t have to, but since they are now doing this BOW stuff, it would behoove them to do so for transparency’s sake.

 

[oleada]

This! I am all about putting it on the table when it matters.

Ross Miner has essentially been denied a moment, too.

I am almost reminded of the US Nationals from 1992, when Mitchell was bumped for Eldredge, and to a lesser extend, Wylie, a brilliant, but nervous and inconsistent international competitor.

Also, in 2002, there were essentially three skaters fighting for second and third in the ladies' division: Nikodinov, Hughes, and Cohen. Sarah was very close to missing the Olympic Team with her third place. Imagine if her moment in Salt Lake had never happened.

This is not remotely the same situation. Sarah Hughes had a world medal, multiple GP and GPF medals. If Ross had that kind of resume, he'd be going. Besides, the selection criteria was different at the time.

There would have to be a massive meltdown, withdrawals from many skaters, and an outbreak of norovirus among everyone for Ross to have an SLC moment.

 

[Cherub721]

He was. And the Olympic Team is announced the next day. There is a a weighty and obvious, not just assumed connection between what goes on at Nationals and who makes the team.

This. It's not like they announce the team the day entries are due. They are selling tickets and ads on the premise that this event is akin to the Olympic trials, although they use all the right disclaimers. And until 2014 it was virtually always the case that the podium went unless a favorite didn't skate due to injury. Now it's middle tier skaters who bombed the free just getting to go anyway. For me it does take away the prestige and the do or die nature of nationals in the Olympic year, which was always one of THE premiere events in the US, often hyped even more than the World Championships.

 

[Bellanca]

Just responding factually. If it was so unlikely not sure why you even brought it up.

Because this is a skating forum, for one, scandals and manipulations have been discovered in the past, for two, and everything gets thrown out there when things like this happen. Why not bring it up? Does the idea of Team Ross possibly taking the decision to that level, should something be discovered, as remote as it may be, make you nervous? It should not if everything is clean and on the up and up. You’ve mentioned the criteria, valid point, of course, but the fact that Brennan is sniffing around should raise eyebrows, and yes, I know, it’s Christine, but…

 

[Bonita]

I've known Ross since he was five. But even if I didn't know him I'd be pissed.

I can somewhat see him getting replaced by Adam, but making him second alternate is just shitting in his face.

Why even have ****en nationals?

 

[Willin]

My feeling in the arena was that this is exactly what happened. Vincent got a standing ovation from the crowd, and when he had finished, I was sure he had done enough to make the Olympic team. It was my mom who was watching on television who informed me that all but one quad had been downgraded - to me that said that the judges were trying to protect Jason and Adam. Then when Ross came out and had the performance of the night and wound up ahead of Vincent, I realized that Jason and Adam's margin for error had suddenly shrunk by quite a lot, considering neither has anything close to a reliable quad jump. Then they BOTH went out and flubbed multiple jumps, leaving us with our current scenario where Vincent finished in the Top 3 anyway, considerably strengthening his case for the Olympics, and their pre-designated (non-Chen) faves shot themselves in the foot.

I do think it left a door open for Jason and Adam, but I do not think that was the primary purpose.

I think the purpose was to send Zhou a message: if you underrotate quads as often and consistently as he does, you're vulnerable. Very vulnerable. They've seen that he consistently underrotates them, and if he doesn't correct that he is liable to be left behind as most other men with quads consistently fully rotate them. When so many men can do fully rotated quads, you need to do them fully rotated. He's losing 3-4 points per quad on underrotations, and that's not going to fly internationally with the strict calling.

IIRC, Phil Hersh was incredulous that USFS wouldn't release that when asked.

Brennan tweeted the other day that she’s made repeated requests for the info.

https://twitter.com/cbrennansports/status/949469667499757568

This is the USFS that loves keeping the judges transparent but doesn't want to keep themselves transparent.

As @skatfan said, bigger federations disclose this stuff. Heck, the College Football Playoff Committee has a running ranking for the last couple of weeks of each season, and after each ranking they make a member of the committee available to be grilling on National TV. One of the committee members even did a Reddit AmA about the selection process. I would absolutely love to see USFS leadership get grilled about their choices, but it's not going to happen. NBC is at the beck and call of USFS and no other network/news agency big enough to have that happen would bother to demand that.

I do think Ross knew, heading into Nationals, that he had essentially no chance of making the team. Anyone who has read the U.S. men's thread over the past month knew it. Ross had had a shot at the beginning of the season, but he hadn't done enough during the GP to climb up like Bradie did. And, yet, Ross was happy last night. He was really, really happy. Maybe there was a certain amount of hope there. Who wouldn't hope? And of course, there has to be a certain amount of heartbreak today. But I think he was happy with how he skated beyond anything else last night. What a glorious moment he had!.

ITA. Ross had to know he was an outside shot even with that performance. But, I'm sure he was very happy with how he skated, and certainly the audience was as well.

 

[caseyedwards]

This is not remotely the same situation. Sarah Hughes had a world medal, multiple GP and GPF medals. If Ross had that kind of resume, he'd be going. Besides, the selection criteria was different at the time.

There would have to be a massive meltdown, withdrawals from many skaters, and an outbreak of norovirus among everyone for Ross to have an SLC moment.

So why replace miner with someone not even at Sarah Hughes level? It makes no sense!

 

[rfisher]

He was. And the Olympic Team is announced the next day. There is a a weighty and obvious, not just assumed connection between what goes on at Nationals and who makes the team. He skated his skate and was given scores that beat skaters who are now going ahead of him, based on things that have happened in the past. To me, that's accounting and parsing rule books. It's not why fans watch sports or what they expect. Not casual fans. And figure skating needs more fans, for sure. Not more shadowy number-crunching. Someone asked a question. I'm just answering it with my take on it.

How do you explain this to your kids? How do you tell them to do their best today and they do and are told, sorry, it doesn't matter? I know you're trying to encourage your son to do figure skating rather than hockey, but if I were your 11 year old watching this, I'd stick with hockey. I don't envy the discussion I know you're having to have with your children. Hockey winners vs losers? Easy. Speed skating. Easy. Skiing? Easy. Especially, how do you explain how a skater who has beat another skater two years running at the national event and this time by 30 points and they were given a post season bowl game and the other got nothing.

 

[Bellanca]

What purpose would it serve? No matter what they did, that committee was going to hear a lot of complaining.

Well, it gives Chris something to do! Seriously, if Brennan is thinking something doesn't seem quite right, why not? She is free to go dig around. Who's going to stop her, and why? Because it makes them uncomfortable? Too bad.

The decision was bound to make many unhappy no matter who was named to the team, but maybe Brennan feels that there is more to it - or, maybe not. That is what she does.

 

[ks777]

The USFSA should have disclosed before the US nationals that which skaters would not be selected for the Olympics regardless of the placements at naitonals because of their lack of body of work.

 

[ZilphaK]

How do you explain this to your kids? How do you tell them to do their best today and they do and are told, sorry, it doesn't matter? I know you're trying to encourage your son to do figure skating rather than hockey, but if I were your 11 year old watching this, I'd stick with hockey. I don't envy the discussion I know you're having to have with your children.

Every sport has its own tough moments, of course. Luckily for my kids, we don't have enough money to allow them to be real contenders in any sport, so in that way, I'm lucky.

 

[caseyedwards]

The USFSA should have disclosed before the US nationals that which skaters would not be selected for the Olympics regardless of the placements at naitonals because of their lack of body of work.

An invitational would work much better. Maybe of 6 skaters.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

It'll be really interesting to see if Karen's, Vincent's and Adam's placements in any way factor at 2018 Worlds, whether Team USA keeps three spots for 2019.

 

[Seerek]

Even finishing high enough at a designated "Olympic Trials" event doesn't guarantee anything.

We have a case in Canada at the Olympic speed skating trials (this weekend) where a skater who finished 2nd in one of the distances was bypassed for Olympic Team selection because he didn't meet the time standard for the distance set out by the federation (while the skaters who finished 3rd and 4th met the standard earlier in the season.)

 

[ssminnow]

The USFSA should have disclosed before the US nationals that which skaters would not be selected for the Olympics regardless of the placements at naitonals because of their lack of body of work.

They can't really do that though because if Chen/Zhou/Rippon got injured during the competition, then Miner/Hochstein/etc would have a chance.

 

[ross_hy]

I saw Mark Mitchell and Mark Ladwig deep in conversation earlier this morning - one can only assume the topic...

Also saw on Twitter that Mitchell posted he was retiring from skating - hard to tell whether it was just frustration or a serious statement.

 

[altai_rose]

How do you explain this to your kids? How do you tell them to do their best today and they do and are told, sorry, it doesn't matter?

This is easy. You tell your kids that they need to do their best Every. Single. Competition. Not just 1 day. Everyone knew the selection criteria before the competition.

And that life's hard and often not fair.

 

[Cherub721]

Even finishing high enough at a designated "Olympic Trials" event doesn't guarantee anything.

We have a case in Canada at the Olympic speed skating trials (this weekend) where a skater who finished 2nd in one of the distances was bypassed for Olympic Team selection because he didn't meet the time standard for the distance set out by the federation (while the skaters who finished 3rd and 4th met the standard earlier in the season.)

At least those are black and white criteria though. Kind of like the minimum TES requirement.

 

[caseyedwards]

This is easy. You tell your kids that they need to do their best Every. Single. Competition. Not just 1 day. Everyone knew the selection criteria before the competition.

And that life's hard and often not fair.

You can do your best every single time and make mistakes! This is like don’t do anything unless you are sure you will be perfect! If you are not perfect all the time quit! Don’t continue if you fail a lot! Just quit! Not perfect? You are terrible!

 

[Bellanca]

And meanwhile, the ice dancers have been overshadowed, again. Sheesh!

 

[chapis]

Any meanwhile, the ice dancers have been overshadowed, again. Sheesh!

well, for ice dancers, Nationals is just another competition, they are not fighting for a mere olympic spot, their goal is an olympic medal