U.S. Ladies [#21]: Wrapped Up with a Neat Little BOW

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Mariah Bell has taken noticeable strides with Raf, despite so much poster comments saying she hasn't made any progress in consistency.

The only noticeable strides I've seen with Raf are noticeable strides backwards. Ever going to Raf I think she's half the skater she was before.

Other than that I agree with almost everything you said

 

[mag]

I might be mistaken on this, but from what I have read here on FSU, the argument is not that she deserved higher PCS but rather that she was previously overmarked, especially by foreign judges at international competitions this season and then -- without notice -- those EVILLE U.S. judges gave her the marks she deserved.

How cruel life can be!

That leads me to what I believe is a just as valid reason for Ashley’s drop in PCS. Winning world silver in 2016 put Ashley in the top of the world group of skaters. She had placed just off the podium at the previous two Worlds and earned medals on the GP series. That consistency along with some improvements in her Skating brought the usually rise in PCS. As she started to slide during the 2017 season her PCS remained at its usual level, again, as seems to be the consistent practice of international panels. In most cases, world medalists are given the benefit of the doubt. By the 2018 season a so so outing at SC, withdrawing from SA, and going back to two old programs stretched the limit. By the time Ashley got to Nationals not as well prepared as she should have been, with an untested LP and a shaky SP the judges were no longer willing to give her the benefit of the doubt and her PCS went back to where it belonged.

Now I can see people saying, “but everyone else got a bump.” Yes, that may be true. But it also true that there are times in the past when Ashley’s star was rising where she was the one getting the bump, and other Skaters didn’t get it.

I think it would be better to just mark everyone based on how they skate and not allow judges to watch practices. I don’t see that happening but I also don’t have a lot of sympathy for a skater who has happily taken the bump when she could, sudddenly complaining when others get it.

 

[Dobre]

I could see putting it differently and saying that Ashley has been marked higher and for a longer period of time both internationally and nationally based on a long, well-fought career earning an extensive number of GP medals and a good number of top-ten World berths.

And that Karen has been marked lower internationally based on a briefer and more cataclysmic junior & senior career.

But I'll stick with the viewpoint that Karen merits high PCS based on her actual program components.

 

[aftershocks]

Alright, well this 100% confirms the discussion/debate I was attempting to have with you is utterly futile as you're not interested in comparing arguments but rather just dislike Ashley and are looking for an excuse to bash her.

In light of that fact, I'm done having this conversation with you.

I was done with TA before she started her usual 'loud, insistent' tirade.

 

[Vagabond]

@Dobre @Vagabond The argument isn't that she deserved higher PCS, it's that all other top skaters got a significant Nationals PCS bump - something Ashley didn't get.

I think part of it may be just that a lot of US judges don't like her - whether it be because of her skating style, personality, or teenage antics - but that doesn't explain why she's gotten the Nationals PCS boost in previous years but not this year.

Thank you for articulating the argument I was trying to summarize better than I did.

The fact that Wagner got a Nationals PCS boost in the past does not mean she should have gotten it this year -- or previously, for that matter. The judges appear to have marked what they saw from Ashley Wagner, so if anyone deserves blame here, it's Wagner herself for not giving them any grounds for giving her higher marks than they did.

 

[Willin]

@Dobre @Vagabond @mag I think my opinion on the matter is that if they were going to mark Ashley's scores accurately, they should have also marked everyone else's accurately.
If they're grading everyone accurately, Karen should've gotten that boost in the SP but not the FS. Mirai should've gotten no boost at all (maybe a bit of a drop - I think she's been marked high all season). Bradie should've not gotten a little boost, but maybe 2 points - not 10 points worth. Mariah was good, but still shaky enough that 4 points was way too much of a PCS boost - maybe for the FS until that mistake at the end, but not for the SP. I haven't seen Starr's international outings this season, but I do think her boost was accurate - she got 6 points of boost, but her average was still 7.1 - a realistic mark for what she did at Nationals compared to the 6.46 she got internationally.

 

[aftershocks]

I don’t believe Ashley outskated Karen at Nationals, so I think that is a fact in dispute.

Perhaps you mean to say 'supposition,' as facts are defined as "indisputably true." Unless of course, they happen to be faux news.

I personally don't think it's a question of either 'outskating' the other this season, although Ashley did score higher than Karen on the GP this season. They both have had problems, but Ashley has a higher record of achievement over a longer career.

But as we know, Ashley's never been a solid US fed fave, so the slightest strong showing by a younger, talented skater has tended to give them the edge over Ashley, particularly when Ashley is not completely perfect. IOW, there's only one instance I can recall where Ashley was held up with mistakes at U.S. Nationals, and that was when her comeback journey was at it's early highest.

 

[mag]

@Dobre @Vagabond @mag I think my opinion on the matter is that if they were going to mark Ashley's scores accurately, they should have also marked everyone else's accurately.
If they're grading everyone accurately, Karen should've gotten that boost in the SP but not the FS. Mirai should've gotten no boost at all (maybe a bit of a drop - I think she's been marked high all season). Bradie should've not gotten a little boost, but maybe 2 points - not 10 points worth. Mariah was good, but still shaky enough that 4 points was way too much of a PCS boost - maybe for the FS until that mistake at the end, but not for the SP. I haven't seen Starr's international outings this season, but I do think her boost was accurate - she got 6 points of boost, but her average was still 7.1 - a realistic mark for what she did at Nationals compared to the 6.46 she got internationally.

It would be great if they always marked everyone accurately, but I have never heard Ashley complain when she was the one getting the PCS boost. The reality is when you are consistent or seen as a rising star, you get a boost. Ashley got that boost. When you stop being so consistent, when you show up not as well trained as you should be, when your numbers start to drop, you may get held up for a bit if you are lucky, but eventually it will come to an end and the judges will look for someone new. Do I think Karen was a great pick for the team? Nope. I find her quite annoying (which is weird because i don’t know her so it is totally irrational.) Did she do enough to get on the team ahead of Ashley, yes. Would Ashley have placed higher at the Olympics, quite possibly.

If Ashley is angry at someone, it should be whoever encouraged her to go with two well worn out programs. I firmly believe if she had been willing to put the time and effort into La La Land from the start of the season, and if she had got a new, sassy SP, she would have been on the team.

 

[DimaToe]

I think what killed Wagner’s Olympic chances was her “taking her time” this season. In years past the Wagner we saw at U.S. nationals would be the Wagner that we would see at the first GP event. There was a lot on her side to balance between training, maintaining an “older” injury prone body and dealing with media commitments. While maybe to her and her team it might have seemed ok to get things going later in the season it seems like USFS didn’t agree with that and at the end of the day that’s what kept her off the Olympic team. While Nagasu has been around just as long as Wagner she doesn’t strike me as the team anchor that Wagner was, Tennell is still somewhat new and she wasn’t exactly kicking butt in juniors, and while I’m happy to see Bell at worlds and was hoping for that earlier in this thread. Her programs (the LP to be specific) are so much below what a contender should have, that I think it will be a great day is she repeats her placement from worlds last year. I think going down to 2 spots will do our ladies some good and show who is really is ready to compete on the big stages. Honestly I think Starr Andrews will dominate the U.S. scene next season. It really is a shame that USFS couldn’t provide the needed support to the bright talents that have come and gone in the post Kwan era, to name some Zawadzki,Gao, Gold, Glenn, and Chen are a few names that come to mind that could’ve had or still have competitive success under a more organized federation.

 

[aftershocks]

Now I can see people saying, “but everyone else got a bump.” Yes, that may be true. But it also true that there are times in the past when Ashley’s star was rising where she was the one getting the bump, and other Skaters didn’t get it.

I think it would be better to just mark everyone based on how they skate and not allow judges to watch practices. I don’t see that happening but I also don’t have a lot of sympathy for a skater who has happily taken the bump when she could, sudddenly complaining when others get it.

I doubt that Ashley thinks of it as having previously 'taken a bump.' That's your way of looking at it. She wasn't complaining either. To be exact, Ashley was 'furious.' And she had the right to voice how she felt.

I don't think I've ever seen many skaters able to back up their initial controversial reaction by taking a reasoned, articulate stand without wimping out and backing down. Ashley's strong character, her honesty, and her ability to authentically express herself is likely one reason why her sponsors continued to back her.

Ashley pretty much raised her star by herself, because she took stock after 2010 U.S. Nationals and decided that her skating career was not over. She worked her butt off to achieve her dreams. John Nicks assisted Ashley in learning how to remake herself and to think like a champion. After Mr. Nicks retired, Raf helped Ashley rework her technique, which enabled Ashley to keep up with the young-uns and the 'sonograms,' and rise even higher. Raf is proud of the work he's achieved with both Ashley and Adam, and he has a right to be very proud. Hopefully, Raf will be able to give Mariah the technical tools she needs as well. But as Raf told Adam (I don't think he needed to tell Ashley): "You have to decide what you want."

It really is a shame that USFS couldn’t provide the needed support to the bright talents that have come and gone in the post Kwan era, to name some Zawadzki,Gao, Gold, Glenn, and Chen are a few names that come to mind that could’ve had or still have competitive success under a more organized federation.

What exactly do you mean by 'a more organized federation,' being the reason why Zawadzki, Gao, Gold, Glenn and Chen (with humongous) talent did not succeed out the stratosphere internationally? I say 'out the stratosphere,' because a few certainly enjoyed modest success, while Gold and Chen have some significant international successes to their names (Gold more than Chen).

It takes individual grit and self-belief besides having a strong, well-organized federation backing you. And still, what specifically do you think is the 'organizational shortfall' that is causing a lack of substantial competitive success for U.S. ladies?

 

[VGThuy]

@aftershocks

https://definitions.uslegal.com/f/fact-in-dispute/

 

[mag]

Ashley pretty much raised her star by herself, because she took stock after 2010 U.S. Nationals and decided that her skating career was not over. She worked her butt off to achieve her dreams.

As opposed to all those skaters who didn’t raise their star by themselves or didn’t work their butts off to achieve their dreams?

I agree that Ashley has done both, but so has pretty much every skater who makes it to her level along with thousands upon thousands who never make it. Ashley is in no way unique in that regard.

 

[aftershocks]

@aftershocks

https://definitions.uslegal.com/f/fact-in-dispute/

In the context in which you used the word 'fact,' it's obviously more appropriately 'view,' 'perception,' or 'opinion.' Facts are usually proven as such via evidence. Here we are chatting about our views and opinions. You can say it's a fact what scores the judges gave and the placements, but how we each interpret those facts is based on our perceptions, opinions and emotions. And how we individually view actual performances is a whole 'nother level of perception and emotion, which rarely coincides with judges' assessments.

In any case, you cite a legal reference, and the last time I checked, this is not a court of law.

 

[aftershocks]

As opposed to all those skaters who didn’t raise their star by themselves or didn’t work their butts off to achieve their dreams?

I agree that Ashley has done both, but so has pretty much every skater who makes it to her level along with thousands upon thousands who never make it. Ashley is in no way unique in that regard.

Every skater's situation is unique @mag. Ashley's trajectory differs from many, and it's worthy of admiration and respect IMO because she took stock and decided she was not going to give up. According to US fed's judgment, as Ashley had experienced it, she was the 'almost girl,' never quite reaching the top of the podium, and never quite making the Olympic team. It took courage and strength of mind for Ashley to decide that she wasn't done yet, and that her dreams were not over. Not everyone is capable of that kind of self-reflection and understanding of the sacrifices needed. And also not everyone has the gumption to reach out and ask for help from someone who might not answer affirmatively, or to not back down when the going forward is rough.

The other thing you seem to be assuming is that just because I cited Ashley's very worthy accomplishments and her journey that it's somehow being cited in direct comparison to someone else's. Every individual has challenges to face and not all of us are able to make the tough choices that carry us toward the next level of achieving our dreams. The first thing is understanding what we want, then believing in it, and then realizing the sacrifices we need to make and being willing to make them. For me Ashley Wagner is a role model. And I believe she is for many young athletes and her fellow competitors as well. That does not mean she's perfect, but she's definitely worthy of more respect than she tends to receive in some quarters. Of course, those who don't like Ashley aren't required to.

... her PCS went back to where it belonged

 

[nimi]

Not sure if this has been posted here already, but Ashley said on her IG that she notified Mariah already a while ago that she was going to take a break from skating and wasn't planning on taking the alternate spot if offered. So Mariah has had time to prepare for Worlds as the de facto 1st alternate.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BgZcGNqgYHy/

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

With Ashley turning down the chance to go to worlds, I think the USA can say goodbye to retaining three spots next year.

 

[VGThuy]

In the context in which you used the word 'fact,' it's obviously more appropriately 'view,' 'perception,' or 'opinion.' Facts are usually proven as such via evidence. Here we are chatting about our views and opinions. You can say it's a fact what scores the judges gave and the placements, but how we each interpret those facts is based on our perceptions, opinions and emotions. And how we individually view actual performances is a whole 'nother level of perception and emotion, which rarely coincides with judges' assessments.

In any case, you cite a legal reference, and the last time I checked, this is not a court of law.

Well, this was a discussion in which kwanatic stated that Ashley had "outskated" Karen at Nationals in a way that sounded as if it was being presented as a fact like how a statement of facts section reads on a motion. I used the term "fact-in-dispute" to argue that it's debatable. I think kwanatic understood what I meant from her reply to me.

I only linked the legal reference because you seemed unfamiliar with the term "fact-in-dispute" in trying to correct my use of the word "fact", so I felt the need to show you that it was a real term. In my line of work "facts" can be tricky. We know perceptions, opinions, etc. become people's "truths" aka "facts". Nothing more, nothing less.

Anyway, you tried to correct me earlier by saying there was no previous post that made such a claim and kwanatic corrected you on that, so now you feel the need to take something else I said to try to correct me to make up for it I guess.

 

[JJS5056]

@JJS5056 Guess I am confused as to your reference "She was hyped as a potential spoiler to the Nagasu-Zhang rivalry of 2007, skated great at what was a very weird Nationals," Are you talking about 2007 Nationals where AW was still a junior (she finished 3rd, 10 points behind Nagasu, and 6 points behind Zhang)...
or 2008 Nationals, where AW was the bronze medalist behind Nagasu 1st overall (1st SP, 3rd LP) , Flatt 2nd overall ( 3rd SP, 1st LP), who were both too young to compete at 2008 Worlds and instead competed at 2008 World Juniors (Flatt 1st, Zhang 2nd, Nagasu 3rd), and Wagner finished 3rd overall at '08 US Nationals (SP 2nd, 2nd LP), who then went to 2008 Worlds, where she finished 16th overall (11th in SP, 15th in LP)? Wagner, Nagasu and Flatt all skated well at 2008 Nationals ;-) And, the only thing that was weird that year was 3 of the top 4 medalists were too young to go to Worlds. Wagner had a less than a stellar debut at Worlds in 2008. :-(

Huge delay here but my point was that AW has been seen as a contender since as far as her final junior season, and was using her accomplishments from the season after as further proof that she wasn't a late bloomer. The performances of all involved at 2008 Nationals wasn't really relevant to the point I clearly failed to make; I was using her placement there, and subsequent Worlds appearance, only to show how far back her career goes. But, really? 3/4 girls being ineligible, Katrina Hacker awkwardly passed over for Meissner, etc., isn't enough to call a Nationals weird?

 

[aftershocks]

Well, this was a discussion in which kwanatic stated that Ashley had "outskated" Karen at Nationals in a way that sounded as if it was being presented as a fact like how a statement of facts section reads on a motion. I used the term "fact-in-dispute" to argue that it's debatable. I think kwanatic understood what I meant from her reply to me.

I only linked the legal reference because you seemed unfamiliar with the term "fact-in-dispute" in trying to correct my use of the word "fact", so I felt the need to show you that it was a real term. In my line of work "facts" can be tricky. We know perceptions, opinions, etc. become people's "truths" aka "facts". Nothing more, nothing less.

Anyway, you tried to correct me earlier by saying there was no previous post that made such a claim and kwanatic corrected you on that, so now you feel the need to take something else I said to try to correct me to make up for it I guess.

And you are making assumptions for whatever reason, but that's okay @VIETgrlTerifa. This is not a oneupmanship contest by any means, just coming at things from a different angle. Obviously, we all are voicing a variety of opinions in here regarding Ashley in particular, and Karen as well to some degree. I often agree with you, but not always, and that's normal and unremarkable.

You're right that I noticed your post but I hadn't initially seen what @kwanatic had said, to which you were responding since you didn't directly quote her in your post, although your post appeared after hers. Regardless, this is still an Internet message forum and not a court of law. What @kwanatic said which you referred to as a 'fact which is in dispute,' is actually her opinion. She did not characterize it as a fact, nor specifically back up her statement in that initial post with specific reasoning or factual evidence.

I'm not trying to correct you, just sharing what I noted. I thought it odd that you referred to kwanatic's stated opinion as a 'fact in dispute.' The regular dictionary definition of a fact is, "a thing that is indisputably the case; actuality; certainty." The facts we can point to as I said are the actual scores, the placements, what they wore, the music they skated to, the names of their coaches, etc. You can continue to disagree, but opinions are not facts unless backed up by incontrovertible evidence. I am familiar with aspects of the law and legal terminology since I worked in the legal field for many years, which does not mean I understand everything about the law. There's always something new to learn.

Maybe Ashley and Adam can star in a new reality tv series about figure skating entitled, Fact or Opinion. Or else someone might come up with an FSU-related series entitled, Egos Unbound.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

All this emphasis on 3 spots. Finagling for a "B" invitation to the party. Everyone knows US figure skating needs an overhaul to its process for identifying and coaching talented girl skaters. No 6+7, 4+9, etc. has produced winners. It's not where the problem is.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

All this emphasis on 3 spots. Finagling for a "B" invitation to the party. Everyone knows US figure skating needs an overhaul to its process for identifying and coaching talented girl skaters. No 6+7, 4+9, etc. has produced winners. It's not where the problem is.

Exactly.

It is about developing, nurturing and conditioning talent to match and beat leaders like Russia and Japan at their own game.

 

[Coco]

Having that 3rd spot NEVER HURTS!

ETA: There is no telling who will come on like a bolt of lightning. Who could have predicted Bradie's '17-'18 season?

As for rebuilding the process, one thing that might help is to offer that 3rd spot to the US lady who gets +GOE for 3 triples and a 2a in every international SP this season, plus + GOE on 6 triples in every international FS this season. If more than one skater meets that criteria, highest cumulative base value wins.

 

[kwanfan1818]

As for rebuilding the process, one thing that might help is to offer that 3rd spot to the US lady who gets +GOE for 3 triples and a 2a in every international SP this season, plus + GOE on 6 triples in every international FS this season. If more than one skater meets that criteria, highest cumulative base value wins.

What I love about this is that it's quantifiable, and everyone in the mix knows what to reach for. There's a list of results that accumulates, with "standings" changing as the season goes on.

 

[kwanatic]

If Ashley is angry at someone, it should be whoever encouraged her to go with two well worn out programs. I firmly believe if she had been willing to put the time and effort into La La Land from the start of the season, and if she had got a new, sassy SP, she would have been on the team.

I would agree with this. When I found out she was going with MR for the 3rd time I was really worried. That was a somewhat lazy, "meh" approach to the season and it backfired. Had Bradie not shown up, it wouldn't have been an issue. But when she came onto the scene it turned everything on its head. Suddenly there's this shiny new girl with difficult jumps and consistency. That was when Ashley realized she was in trouble and went back to LLL. By that time it was too late.

I think the scoring discrepancies were obvious and pretty shady, but again, I see why they went with Karen over Ashley. Despite all of her wishy-washy indecisiveness, it was clear Karen had been trying all year to make something work. Whether it's true or not, the perception was Ashley started putting the effort it in at the 11th hour.

With Ashley turning down the chance to go to worlds, I think the USA can say goodbye to retaining three spots next year.

Agreed. Say what you will about her but she's been a strong top 7 skater for the past 6 years. It's going to be a fight to get an American to crack the top 7 this year. 2 Russians, 2 Japanese, 2 Canadians, 1 Italian. That's 7 right there. Now there's a chance some or at least one of them will have an off night and drop, but that means the Americans will have to deliver. Unlike Ashley who at least had PCS to back her up, none of them carry any international PCS weight into this competition so in order to get solid scores they'll have to be clean.

I think going down to 2 spots will do our ladies some good and show who is really is ready to compete on the big stages.

Agreed. I think losing that 3rd spot is going to make these skaters work harder and I'm here for it. More competitiveness within the US field is what we need. But in addition to a competitive hike, the level of skating needs to be increased if we're hoping to see an American at the top of a major international podium in the next 4-8 years.

 

[mtnskater]

Haven’t checked FSU for a few days and frankly shocked by Karen’s late hour withdrawal. I was already pissed at her for her botched Olympic performances and blaming it on boots. Now she is giving away an opportunity to compete at Worlds!!? Those chances don’t come along often in a skaters career and are a real privilege. I don’t understand her at all. Such indecision on programs all season with much wasted time on choreography rather than technique. While not being in great elite skater shape for the Olympic season no less. The post Olympic ladies interview with Doug (name escaping me) on TSL, the jump coach on Orser’s team, was very illuminating. He said Karen’s jump technique is a problem because she jumps high and rotates on the way down. Making it very difficult to complete the rotations in time and control the landing. This is what Karen needs to spend time addressing...not boots or programs. I’m a frustrated fan because she is focusing on the wrong things, giving away rare opportunities and wasting her talent. Too bad.

I agree with those who feel Ashley should have been on that Olympic team because she should have placed 3rd at Nationals. I was at Nationals, and in person, her performance was gorgeous and mesmerizing. No US lady can perform like that. I have no illusions that Ashley would have placed high at the Olympics but neither did Adam Rippon. Yet he has become a huge hit in the US because he is such a captivating performer. Well so is Ashley. I think the American public would have really appreciated the beauty and maturity in her skating like Adam. Anyway, it is water under the bridge but I’m sad this may be how Ashley went out. She really was the savior of US ladies for so long and deserved that final Olympic opportunity. Karen got it and frittered it away unfortunately.

 

[GreatLakesGal]

Haven’t checked FSU for a few days and frankly shocked by Karen’s late hour withdrawal. I was already pissed at her for her botched Olympic performances and blaming it on boots. Now she is giving away an opportunity to compete at Worlds!!? Those chances don’t come along often in a skaters career and are a real privilege. I don’t understand her at all. Such indecision on programs all season with much wasted time on choreography rather than technique. While not being in great elite skater shape for the Olympic season no less. The post Olympic ladies interview with Doug (name escaping me) on TSL, the jump coach on Orser’s team, was very illuminating. He said Karen’s jump technique is a problem because she jumps high and rotates on the way down. Making it very difficult to complete the rotations in time and control the landing. This is what Karen needs to spend time addressing...not boots or programs. I’m a frustrated fan because she is focusing on the wrong things, giving away rare opportunities and wasting her talent. Too bad.

I agree with those who feel Ashley should have been on that Olympic team because she should have placed 3rd at Nationals. I was at Nationals, and in person, her performance was gorgeous and mesmerizing. No US lady can perform like that. I have no illusions that Ashley would have placed high at the Olympics but neither did Adam Rippon. Yet he has become a huge hit in the US because he is such a captivating performer. Well so is Ashley. I think the American public would have really appreciated the beauty and maturity in her skating like Adam. Anyway, it is water under the bridge but I’m sad this may be how Ashley went out. She really was the savior of US ladies for so long and deserved that final Olympic opportunity. Karen got it and frittered it away unfortunately.

His full name is Doug Haw and I thought his comments about Karen were very interesting. However, if she's doing clean run throughs of her programs then it's possible that her jump technique is fine when she's not suffering from competitive nerves. Gracie Gold had a similar problem--she would do fine run throughs and then tighten up during competitions.

As for being indecisive with program selection, Ashley was guilty of that too. It seems to me that both of these women and their teams really dropped the ball on strategic thinking. And that they did it during an Olympic year is astonishing to me. My guess is that the US federation is not pleased with either of them.

 

[aftershocks]

My guess is that the US federation is not pleased with either of them.

Well, they were more displeased with Ashley by Nationals obviously, despite all of her achievements and contributions over the years. Yes, Ashley made some mistakes in judgement since 2016 Worlds, but nothing so bad that she deserved to be unceremoniously nudged aside in what was her final season. US fed may have their reasons, but every chance they got over the years, they refused to get fully behind Ashley in a number of instances, despite her international results. When that happens, it begins to erode one's rep with the judges at major international competitions.

As far as Karen, US fed was definitely still supportive and encouraging toward her at Nationals. Who knows what they feel about Karen's situation at this point. Karen is still young and very talented. But she has a lot of work to do and a lot of 'taking stock' decisions to make.

 

[leigh466]

So sad that Karen is injured and unable to make it to Worlds.

 

[Frida80]

Haven’t checked FSU for a few days and frankly shocked by Karen’s late hour withdrawal. I was already pissed at her for her botched Olympic performances and blaming it on boots. Now she is giving away an opportunity to compete at Worlds!!? Those chances don’t come along often in a skaters career and are a real privilege. I don’t understand her at all. Such indecision on programs all season with much wasted time on choreography rather than technique. While not being in great elite skater shape for the Olympic season no less. The post Olympic ladies interview with Doug (name escaping me) on TSL, the jump coach on Orser’s team, was very illuminating. He said Karen’s jump technique is a problem because she jumps high and rotates on the way down. Making it very difficult to complete the rotations in time and control the landing. This is what Karen needs to spend time addressing...not boots or programs. I’m a frustrated fan because she is focusing on the wrong things, giving away rare opportunities and wasting her talent. Too bad.

I agree with those who feel Ashley should have been on that Olympic team because she should have placed 3rd at Nationals. I was at Nationals, and in person, her performance was gorgeous and mesmerizing. No US lady can perform like that. I have no illusions that Ashley would have placed high at the Olympics but neither did Adam Rippon. Yet he has become a huge hit in the US because he is such a captivating performer. Well so is Ashley. I think the American public would have really appreciated the beauty and maturity in her skating like Adam. Anyway, it is water under the bridge but I’m sad this may be how Ashley went out. She really was the savior of US ladies for so long and deserved that final Olympic opportunity. Karen got it and frittered it away unfortunately.

Karen's boot company decided to throw a fit and dumped her a few weeks ago. Karen has made it clear that finding boots was very hard for her and would've quit if she hadn't found her current boots. That means she doesn't have any boots to compete with for Worlds. She isn't throwing away any chance. She just doesn't have the necessary equipment to compete. It's going to take her several months to find replacement boots. It was a better idea that going in with another pair of boots that hurt her.

 

[aftershocks]

Exactly.

It is about developing, nurturing and conditioning talent to match and beat leaders like Russia and Japan at their own game.

Right, and this is probably being discussed in detail in the other GSD thread. One of the issues though is that US fed is never going to be like Russia or China in developing athletes. It's the same regarding the need to improve and develop US pairs truthfully. Of course there's more lamenting over ladies singles because it has been the discipline where the U.S. has traditionally won many major competitions since the 1950s. The U.S. still holds records in ladies singles for the most medals won at Worlds and Olympics -- even after a 10-year podium drought. That tells us something about U.S. ladies' former dominance. It will still take some time before Russia and Japan can match or beat the U.S. ladies medal count, as if that makes any difference.

In any case, I don't think the inordinate amount of hand-wringing is necessary. The balance of power has changed, and there are numerous other factors involved. There has to be a different leadership approach IMO. Plus, a different way of thinking regarding how all the far-flung clubs across the U.S. operate. As we've discussed in U.S. pairs thread, coaches who train top level skaters are to a certain degree unwilling to share or collaborate. So it's a turf issue as well. In Russia that seems to play out via the coaches who achieve the most success being able to wield the most power and thus ending up with the more talented skaters. I don't know much about how that all works in Russia, but for e.g., Mozer's teams have an advantage over other pairs like A/R and the former Bazarova/Deputat (who I loved together). B/D couldn't seem to gain much traction. Perhaps under the wing of a coach like Moskvina, they might have improved to their full potential. I got the impression they were not fully supported after they didn't achieve immediate great results internationally.

But I digress. The point is, strong, fearless leadership and creative vision is lacking among US fed (and of course the ISU as well). But all is not gloom and doom for US figure skating athletes.