U.S. Pairs 2021-22 season - News & Updates, Part X

[olympic]

Sui/Han won skate Canada with a major splat on her triple Sal which isn’t unusual for her. Internationally, a lot of pairs fall. What hurts US pairs is that we don’t tend to have the skating skills, basics, and pairs skills to truly take us to the next level. Landing the triples of course is of the utmost importance but I notice many other teams from other countries can afford falls more because of their pairs skills.

This is a point I've thought of years ago. Top international teams do splat on the SBS jumps, but someone like S/H will outscore US pairs with ease because they accumulate point everywhere else.

It's hard for me to explain, but I think that while SBS jumps don't make or break a performance for a very good team with tons of skills, landing them consistently with sound technique would blow open the door for teams like K/F, C/J or CG/L to skate with a lot more confidence; a domino effect if you will and that in turn would embolden them to be more daring with PCS, MITF, choreo, the other elements, thus really elevating their scores overall and making them competitive at the top. Sometimes, I think US pairs (w/ exceptions) go for easier choreographic movements (or water it down) because they are fearful and concentrating so much on those explosive elements like the SBS jump or even throws - the latter are admittedly done a little better by US pairs.

Just ETA - If it helps, maybe a team like C/J could go for a SBS 2A. P/J and He-Zhang + partner did this often in the past and still scored very well internationally. C/J could concentrate and go for it on everything else, maybe score higher overall ...

 

[skylark]

This is a point I've thought of years ago. Top international teams do splat on the SBS jumps, but someone like S/H will outscore US pairs with ease because they accumulate point everywhere else.

It's hard for me to explain, but I think that while SBS jumps don't make or break a performance for a very good team with tons of skills, landing them consistently with sound technique would blow open the door for teams like K/F, C/J or CG/L to skate with a lot more confidence; a domino effect if you will and that in turn would embolden them to be more daring with PCS, MITF, choreo, the other elements, thus really elevating their scores overall and making them competitive at the top. Sometimes, I think US pairs (w/ exceptions) go for easier choreographic movements (or water it down) because they are fearful and concentrating so much on those explosive elements like the SBS jump or even throws - the latter are admittedly done a little better by US pairs.

What is MITF? And is PCS 'program components'?

 

[olympic]

What is MITF? And is PCS 'program components'?

Moves in the Field . Yes

 

[yeslek]

Landings of difficult elements after being tossed in the air are tough and are a part of skating

Okay never said it was easy or not a part of skating….. I still think her actual skating is very tentative. It’s an opinion. We can have different opinions.

 

[olympic]

U.S. Pairs are #7, #8, and #10 on the international scene this season -

7. S/K - 202.97
8. C/J - 197.42, despite egregious SBS jump mistakes
10. CG/L - 193.00 (Finlandia), then 189 at SC w/ a bronze.

Competition for 2 spots at Olympics / Worlds will be tantalizing. Interesting to see if L/M can crack the top #20 next week, and interesting that there is some depth developing in the weakest US discipline.

 

[Sylvia]

From one month ago (NHK Trophy will be the first of 2 GPs for L/M):

@clairecloutier recently interviewed Lu/Mitrofanov:

Audrey Lu and Misha Mitrofanov: Rising stars in U.S. pairs skating - Figure Skaters Online

A lot has changed for U.S. pairs skaters Audrey Lu and Misha Mitrofanov since they first teamed up in May 2016.

figureskatersonline.com

Fan Zone article (Nov. 9) on Cain-Gribble/LeDuc before they compete in their 2nd GP at NHK Trophy:

Two Pillars of Strength: Ashley Cain-Gribble and Timothy LeDuc Stay Connected, Consistant Preparing for NHK Trophy - U.S. Figure Skating Fan Zone

At Skate Canada International, Ashley Cain-Gribble and Timothy LeDuc captured bronze with a program that looked a lot like their 2019 free skate. The matching ombré-gray jumpsuits are back, as is their hauntingly lyrical music from the W.E. soundtrack.

usfigureskatingfanzone.com

 

[olympic]

Question - Serafini / Tran? Are they no longer skating together or at all?

 

[Sylvia]

Question - Serafini / Tran? Are they no longer skating together or at all?

Split this past summer. She's still interested in continuing in pairs (enrolled in/taking classes at New York University) and he is coaching in NY, last I heard.

 

[Sylvia]

UNOFFICIAL standings of the Senior Pairs after the 2nd of 2 qualifying competitions in Norwood, MA (higher total score bolded if competed twice) - top 6 are projected to qualify for Nationals:

Katie McBeath/Nathan Bartholomay 171.21 (NV)
Anastasiia Smirnova/Danil Siianytsia 168.59 (MA)
Valentina Plazas/Maximiliano Fernandez (146.85 NV) 147.69 (MA)
Kate Finster/Matej Silecky 141.62 (NV)
Maria Mokhova/Ivan Mokhov (134.52 NV) 140.26 (MA)
Sydney Cooke/Keyton Bearinger 136.86 (NV)
-----
Alexandra Fakhroutdinov/Danny Neudecker 126.84 (NV) (119.53 MA)
Sarah Burden/Matthew Rounis (116.46 NV) 121.50 (MA)

BYES (top 5 at 2021 Nationals): Knierim/Frazier, Calalang/Johnson, Cain-Gribble/LeDuc, Lu/Mitrofanov, Chan/Howe;
plus Liu/O'Shea if they've been assigned to Golden Spin as their 3rd international (1 GP, 2 Challengers) but this is not confirmed at this time.

UNOFFICIAL standings - top 12 Junior pairs qualify for Nationals (higher total score bolded):

Sonia Baram/Daniel Tioumentsev 174.95 in NV (173.64 in MA)
Isabelle Martins/Ryan Bedard 152.33 (MA)
Cayla Smith/Andy Deng (132.65 in NV) 141.53 (MA)
Ellie Kam/Ian Meyh (116.74 in NV) 139.90 (MA)
Catherine Rivers/Timmy Chapman 134.53 in NV (123.52 in MA)
Megan Wessenberg/Blake Eisenach (130.68 in NV) 134.17 (MA)
Sylvia Wong/Skylar Weirens 121.79 in NV (119.26 in MA)
Brooke Barrett/Levon Davis 119.52 (MA)
Winter Deardorff/Jake Pagano 111.08 (MA)
Cate Fleming/Chase Finster 105.12 (MA)
Mandy Romero/Kristofer Ogren (78.85 in NV) 102.99 (MA)
Ashley Fletcher/Aidan Brown 102.79 (NV)
---
Lilianna Murray/Jordan Gillette (94.45 in NV) 99.95 (MA)
Reagan Moss/Blake Edwards (92.69 in NV) 95.66 (MA)

 

[clairecloutier]

I heard that Ellie Kam has only been doing pairs for a few months … so quite a nice showing from her and partner Ian Meyh.

 

[Sylvia]

I heard that Ellie Kam has only been doing pairs for a few months … so quite a nice showing from her and partner Ian Meyh.

Here's what I posted in the Kiss & Cry section during the Junior Pairs FS:

Kudos to Kam/Meyh on their 3twist after only 4+ months together! Drew Meekins and Natalia Mishkutenok coach them in CO Springs.
89.77 in FS, 139.90 in 1st with 3 left. Wow, 20+ points higher than in NV!

Ellie's new to pairs and also competitive in Novice singles this season.

ETA music trivia: She's using music from Jekyll and Hyde for her Novice SP as well as their Junior Pairs FS.

 

[clairecloutier]

The overall season's-best list for pairs hasn't been updated yet, but it looks like the top American teams should be numbers 7, 8, 9, and 12 after NHK, if I'm calculating correctly (K/F, CG/LD, C/J, and L/M).

IDF and Warsaw Cup next week will provide opportunities for K/F and C/J to raise their overall scores; hopefully they can take advantage of this. L/M have another opportunity in 2 weeks at Rostelecom. Our entries for Golden Spin are not known yet, although it seems expected that Liu/O'Shea will be there.

https://results.isu.org/isujsstat/sb2021-22/sbtspto.htm

2021 NHK Trophy play-by-play/results: Pairs free skate — Rocker Skating - Analysis by Jackie Wong

Videos and play-by-play of the pairs free skate at 2021 NHK Trophy

www.rockerskating.com

 

[olympic]

Funny. U.S. pairs at NHK were the highlight of team USA for me, even if we consider that pairs is the weakest link. Both CG/L and L/M stepped up and made a case for themselves both nationally and internationally. L/M are now right there knocking on the door of the top 3, and they land their SBS jumps much more consistently.

ETA - I seriously think though that the 2 spots for the Olympic / World teams are getting seriously competitive in the US. I don't think that K/F are a lock to win anymore. They better have their act together

I was thinking about L/O. Chelsea Liu is a better match for Danny than Tarah, but she really has trouble staying on her feet, and I seem to remember that was her problem with Brian. They have potential but can they deliver? BTW, what is their top international score?

What is the status of Chan / Howe (sp?)

 

[skylark]

I was thinking about L/O. Chelsea Liu is a better match for Danny than Tarah, but she really has trouble staying on her feet, and I seem to remember that was her problem with Brian. They have potential but can they deliver?

In the recent article (I don't want to search for it because I'm about to watch the dance, women and men from last night & don't want spoilers) ... anyway, Danny specifically said that his reason for coming out of 'retirement' was that he wanted a different ending of his skating career to look back on in 10 years. So the only way was to make a new beginning. Chelsea's reasons were similar, apparently.

Dare I say it? Their goals and dreams for competing again may not be what fans demand: win worlds, win olympics, etc., even win nationals. They are already competitive with the top 5 US teams. Good enough to be able to get GP assignments ... and they could compete for years to come on that basis! think Voronov, Leonova, others.

They are loving skating together and have re-ignited their joy in skating and competing. It's so obvious just from watching them skate, and it makes them a great joy and pleasure to watch! That's more than enough for me. In fact, I already re-watch them more often than I re-watch all but one of the other US pairs, (C-G/L).

And what a great thing for the two of them ... to use your words ... to find a 'better match' after all those years!!!! I also think Danny is a far better match for Chelsea than Brian or Ian was. I mean, I know some people want results more than these kind of successes, and no elite athlete is going to say they don't want to win. But how can anyone argue with competing for love of the sport? Anyway, I'm not going to. I want to watch Chelsea and Danny skate for a long, long time!

 

[clairecloutier]

@olympic Chan/Howe and Liu/O'Shea are both entered to compete at Warsaw Cup next week, along with Calalang/Johnson. Hopefully both can do well. It is a pretty deep field, as things currently stand. (Although I am wondering if T/M will withdraw, having just competed at NHK.)

https://results.isu.org/events/cspol2021_Pairs.htm

As to Liu/O'Shea, I think we are seeing that Chelsea brings a lot to this partnership, even if jumps are not her strong point. Let's see what happens. It's very early days yet for them (assuming they continue beyond this year). My hope is that the throw jumps become more consistent, at least. ETA: L/O's top international score is 175.40; they are currently #22 on the season's-best list. I would consider this a strong score for a first-year team.

 

[yeslek]

Funny. U.S. pairs at NHK were the highlight of team USA for me, even if we consider that pairs is the weakest link. Both CG/L and L/M stepped up and made a case for themselves both nationally and internationally. L/M are now right there knocking on the door of the top 3, and they land their SBS jumps much more consistently.

ETA - I seriously think though that the 2 spots for the Olympic / World teams are getting seriously competitive in the US. I don't think that K/F are a lock to win anymore. They better have their act together

I was thinking about L/O. Chelsea Liu is a better match for Danny than Tarah, but she really has trouble staying on her feet, and I seem to remember that was her problem with Brian. They have potential but can they deliver? BTW, what is their top international score?

What is the status of Chan / Howe (sp?)

K/F better have their act together because one team got the same score as their lowest score???

 

[Karen-W]

K/F better have their act together because one team got the same score as their lowest score???

K/F have only two scores that count in the US selection criteria right now - 2021 Worlds and SkAm. They did score better at Cranberry and John Nicks but they need to demonstrate some consistency by scoring at least equal to their SkAm score next week in order to move out of Group 3 status.

I wouldn't say they "need to get their act together" but what I will say is that C-G/L have shown they can score in a similar range, even with a flawed FS, so international judges are clearly appreciative of them, Lu/Mitrofanov scored very well in their season debut (top 10 at Worlds 2021 score), and C/J are also scoring in the same range with flawed skates. If I were K/F, there are areas of obvious weakness where, if they miss their SBS jumps, they can be beaten by any of those 3 teams at Nationals and where does that leave them if those other 3 teams are ALSO in Group 3? It probably leaves then off the Olympic Team.

 

[olympic]

Re K/F, ‘Getting their act together’ was a bit strong. They’ve made great strides in the consistency of their SBS jumps, but they still mess up enough to keep them from breaking out and away, which would leave them vulnerable to another top US team, so that is probably a more nuanced way of stating what I wanted to say in the first place

 

[olympic]

@olympic Chan/Howe and Liu/O'Shea are both entered to compete at Warsaw Cup next week, along with Calalang/Johnson. Hopefully both can do well. It is a pretty deep field, as things currently stand. (Although I am wondering if T/M will withdraw, having just competed at NHK.)

https://results.isu.org/events/cspol2021_Pairs.htm

As to Liu/O'Shea, I think we are seeing that Chelsea brings a lot to this partnership, even if jumps are not her strong point. Let's see what happens. It's very early days yet for them (assuming they continue beyond this year). My hope is that the throw jumps become more consistent, at least. ETA: L/O's top international score is 175.40; they are currently #22 on the season's-best list. I would consider this a strong score for a first-year team.

Thank you. I did not know all 3 US teams would be there. I hope they all take advantage of the situation, and same for S/K at their GP event

 

[RoseRed]

K/F have only two scores that count in the US selection criteria right now - 2021 Worlds and SkAm. They did score better at Cranberry and John Nicks but they need to demonstrate some consistency by scoring at least equal to their SkAm score next week in order to move out of Group 3 status.

I wouldn't say they "need to get their act together" but what I will say is that C-G/L have shown they can score in a similar range, even with a flawed FS, so international judges are clearly appreciative of them, Lu/Mitrofanov scored very well in their season debut (top 10 at Worlds 2021 score), and C/J are also scoring in the same range with flawed skates. If I were K/F, there are areas of obvious weakness where, if they miss their SBS jumps, they can be beaten by any of those 3 teams at Nationals and where does that leave them if those other 3 teams are ALSO in Group 3? It probably leaves then off the Olympic Team.

I believe that Cranberry and John Nicks do count for the selection criteria though.

The list of events that counts includes this language:

*2021 Identified ISU International Events assigned by the International Committee (IC Discipline Subcommittees) during the 2021-22 season

Each season athletes are selected by the U.S. Figure Skating’s IC Discipline Subcommittees for assignment to additional international events. The “2021 Identified International Events during the 2021-22 season” in 1.2.1. will be used for consideration to nominate the 2022 U.S. Olympic Team.

And Phil Hersh said in September "USFS told me scores at events like Cranberry Cup, US Intnl, Nicks Pairs, LP Dance also will be considered"

 

[Karen-W]

I believe that Cranberry and John Nicks do count for the selection criteria though.

The list of events that counts includes this language:



And Phil Hersh said in September "USFS told me scores at events like Cranberry Cup, US Intnl, Nicks Pairs, LP Dance also will be considered"

The only way that I think those events scores are going to be used/considered is if the teams don't manage to sort themselves into the groups themselves through the GP, CS, and JGP scores. All K/F really need to do next week is match their SkAm score and they'll become the only team (currently) in Group 2 and that will pretty much lock their spot.

 

[chachacha]

K/F have only two scores that count in the US selection criteria right now - 2021 Worlds and SkAm. They did score better at Cranberry and John Nicks but they need to demonstrate some consistency by scoring at least equal to their SkAm score next week in order to move out of Group 3 status.

I wouldn't say they "need to get their act together" but what I will say is that C-G/L have shown they can score in a similar range, even with a flawed FS, so international judges are clearly appreciative of them, Lu/Mitrofanov scored very well in their season debut (top 10 at Worlds 2021 score), and C/J are also scoring in the same range with flawed skates. If I were K/F, there are areas of obvious weakness where, if they miss their SBS jumps, they can be beaten by any of those 3 teams at Nationals and where does that leave them if those other 3 teams are ALSO in Group 3? It probably leaves then off the Olympic Team.

Ashley and Time showed improvement. But they haven’t had consistent skates either. Their last SP at Skate Canada was like 61 and Jessica and Brian have consistently shown strong SP scores. Yes Ashley and Tim broke the 200 mark but that’s the first time all season they need show they can consistently score well and keep breaking 200 even with mistakes. Knierim/Frazier even with mistakes have broken the 200 score more than once. It’s gonna be interesting at Nationals which two teams will be going the Olympics. Keeps things really exciting!

 

[Karen-W]

Ashley and Time showed improvement. But they haven’t had consistent skates either. Their last SP at Skate Canada was like 61 and Jessica and Brian have consistently shown strong SP scores. Yes Ashley and Tim broke the 200 mark but that’s the first time all season they need show they can consistently score well and keep breaking 200 even with mistakes. Knierim/Frazier even with mistakes have broken the 200 score more than once. It’s gonna be interesting at Nationals which two teams will be going the Olympics. Keeps things really exciting!

You probably want to read the selection criteria document. It specifically states that scoring trajectory (both up & down) will be considered.

Cain-Gribble/LeDuc
Autumn Classic Int'l - SP 59.58, FS 111.06, Total 170.64
Finlandia Trophy - SP 64.98, FS 128.02, Total 193.00
Skate Canada - SP 61.68, FS 128.22, Total 189.90
NHK Trophy - SP 70.75, FS 132.04, Total 202.79

Calalang/Johnson
Cranberry Cup - SP 68.90, FS 126.38, Total 195.28
John Nicks Int'l - SP 67.33, FS 129.36, Total 196.69
Finlandia Trophy - SP 64.13, FS 127.76, Total 191.89
Skate America - SP 68.87, FS 128.55, Total 197.42
Warsaw Cup

Knierim/Frazier
Cranberry Cup - SP 69.83, FS 136.04, Total 205.87
John Nicks Int'l - SP 76.09, FS 136.46, Total 212.55
Skate America - SP 66.37, FS 136.60, Total 202.97
IdF

Lu/Mitrofanov
Cranberry Cup - SP 60.75, FS 98.06, Total 158.81
John Nicks Int'l - SP 66.16, FS 129.04, Total 195.20
NHK Trophy - SP 64.95, FS 125.08, Total 190.03
Rostelecom

We'll see if K/F or C/J are assigned to Golden Spin, but even if you add in the non-GP/CS events (Cranberry & John Nicks), it seems like none of the teams are really breaking out of the Worlds Top 10 tier, so C-G/L's score at NHK is noteworthy. C/J need to break that 201+ barrier at Warsaw Cup if they want to strengthen their case should all three teams finish in the top 3 at Nats, at this point, IMO. Same goes for L/M at Rostelecom.

I'm not quite ready to put K/F in the Group 2 tier yet, only because Cranberry & John Nicks were a little light on international competitors (I know, the tech panel, judging panel, and # of competitors/countries met the criteria but apart from TarMor there weren't any top 15 let alone top 10 pairs at either event except the US teams). If K/F can match or better their SkAm score next week, they'll clearly be in Group 2.

 

[yeslek]

I believe that Cranberry and John Nicks do count for the selection criteria though.

The list of events that counts includes this language:



And Phil Hersh said in September "USFS told me scores at events like Cranberry Cup, US Intnl, Nicks Pairs, LP Dance also will be considered"

Yeah and while cg/l can score over 200 they have also had not great outings.

 

[Karen-W]

Yeah and while cg/l can score over 200 they have also had not great outings.

Fixed that for you. They had ONE bad outing this season - their first, at ACI, where Ashley was still recovering from C19. Since then, they have scored higher in each event than they did at Worlds, not to mention they scored higher in 2 of those events than K/F did at Worlds. Gosh, one only wonders what they could have done without losing several weeks of training time due to that unfortunate situation.

 

[Dobre]

Lu & Mitrofanov:

This was probably the best I've seen them in seniors. Their elements felt very solid at NHK.

So, what choreographer wants to tackle the challenge of getting through to these two for a Lea Ann Miller type breakthrough? Because I think it's going to take that level of intervention to get these two to develop a relationship with each other & the audience on the ice.

But they do seem committed. They're putting in the time and gaining a senior-level hold on the technical mark. It would be worth the time & effort if anyone can break through that wall they have when it comes to presentation.

 

[Karen-W]

Lu & Mitrofanov:

This was probably the best I've seen them in seniors. Their elements felt very solid at NHK.

So, what choreographer wants to tackle the challenge of getting through to these two for a Lea Ann Miller type breakthrough? Because I think it's going to take that level of intervention to get these two to develop a relationship with each other & the audience on the ice.

But they do seem committed. They're putting in the time and gaining a senior-level hold on the technical mark. It would be worth the time & effort if anyone can break through that wall they have when it comes to presentation.

Maybe Lori Nichol will be available for hire once this quad is done and the top two Chinese pairs teams retire (Sui/Han for sure, guessing that Peng/Jin won't go another quad either).

 

[olympic]

I love L/M, but agree that they need help with developing better choreo and a connection to the audience, but they had to start somewhere and clean performances internationally with difficult elements is that start! And I will NEVER look down on a US pair consistently landing SBS jumps

 

[Spiralgraph]

I love L/M, but agree that they need help with developing better choreo and a connection to the audience, but they had to start somewhere and clean performances internationally with difficult elements is that start! And I will NEVER look down on a US pair consistently landing SBS jumps

I hear you, Olympic and I agree. They can do the throws and jumps easily but it still looks like they're skating like it's an exam and they have to score well. All concentration, little energy for projecting to the audience or to each other. But they're still young, if they stay together and don't break up for school (or other nefarious reasons ) L/M could be a top USA team in the near future.

 

[clairecloutier]

Knierim/Frazier, Calalang/Johnson, and Lu/Mitrofanov are listed for Golden Spin.

https://results.isu.org/events/fsevent00111006.htm

Hope they have a decent (and reasonably priced) stream this year.