Mark Mitchell: "Why would they come back to the rink?"

[ZilphaK]

I think most skating fans like a balance of art and athleticism. Its just when the start talking about how to make skating popular with people who don't like skating that they start sounding like they want to totally ruin it.

Not popular with people who don't like skating...popular at all. The more popular it is, the more people will spend the money to put their kids in the sport, and the larger base of talented kids we'll have in the sport. Right now, the Venn diagram of money+talent+interest+availabiity intersects at a very slim wedge. USFS has been throwing ideas at the clubs like spaghetti at a wall, trying to help them maintain membership -- try synchro, try theater on ice, try solo dance, promote LTS for hockey. Economic slumps don't help this sport, either. Stars on Ice is on life support (although Disney on Ice still kicks butt.) I love my wonky, purist niche interest. But it's also no sin to evolve. You can still find patch ice and figures competitions out there. As you can find 6.0 competitions. But judges are getting older and there are few to fill their place. Ice rinks are closing or have too many hockey players buying ice at top dollar to give figure skaters ice, although even hockey is struggling in places. I'm just saying...this sport is struggling. It will get a short injection this year, but it will be another three-year struggle for our clubs after this.

 

[BlueRidge]

I know the discussions are endless on this board, how to make skating popular. For me, I'll keep watching til its gone. I just watch to enjoy, not to fix it.

But I definitely roll my eyes when people want to make it more like other winter olympic sports. Just go watch those then.

Incidentally these kinds of discussions are endemic to many arts. I know about it from one I like, opera. People don't like opera, young people aren't participating, etc. Let's make opera more like musicals or something real people like. I sure hope not...

 

[ZilphaK]

There is subjectivity in hockey and football too (I watch both), but it is limited to penalties usually. Sometimes there are disagreements and somestimes the calls are blatantly wrong, to the extent they change the outcome of the game. Yes, there are some protests but they move on. In figure skating though people never seem to completely move on (myself included). I don't know why.

For Hockey, I don't know what criteria they use to select the Olympic teams. Sometimes it seems unfair to not select a beloved and talented player who has proven himself. Still, people move on, understanding that the Olympics are once in 4 years, so the opportunity may never come again. They move on.

Why do we hold on to the disagreements?I would like to know.

The difference with hockey -- at least now -- is that the most talented players in the US are on NHL teams, making a lot of money (Capitals base salary is something like $695,000 a year, even if you're on the bench). NHL players are prohibited from heading to Olympics this year; it costs the NHL too much money. There are AHL players going and some college kids, and while I don't doubt it's a dream and a thrill and an honor to go to the Olympics, let alone win a medal, it's the Stanley Cup that is more prestigious, I'd say.

I'm on some hockey messageboards and I'm a Caps fan -- believe me, there's a lot of gnashing of teeth and "flouncing" every time the Caps -- the number one team in the Metropolitan Division -- lose to the lower ranked Penguins in the second round of playoffs. By rights the Caps should be a Stanley Cup Finalist, at least the past few years, but they never get past second round. And they sit home while teams with overall poorer seasons and fewer goals move on to win the prize. For Olympics, there is a mild interest in who is going -- a guy from our local AHL team is going -- but I don't think many would have noticed if he weren't picked. There is drama, for sure...but again, there is also a lot of slugging on the ice, so it feels like problems are worked out to catharsis, I guess.

There is some subjectivity in all sports -- maybe not in track as much or swimming, the "go in a straight line and reach the finish point" sports. But while other sports depend on technique to score, penalties and fouls come from players using illegal methods to stop the scoring. In figure skating, the technique, coupled with artistry, is what is being scored -- I guess it just feels more personal in a way, so fans take it more personally when judging seems flawed or rigged.

My husband always says, "Figure skating would be a sport if there were other skaters out there trying to prevent the person on the ice from doing their jumps and spins." He's kind of an idiot, but I get the point when comparing to team sports. No one is deducting points from Alex Ovechkin for the style on his slapshot. If he scores a point, who cares? If Crosby slew-foots him and the ref doesn't see it (as usual, heh), well...there's instant catharsis.

Maybe we all just need to yell at the judges and tech specialists more often during competition. "DUDE, YOU STINK. THAT SPIN HAD THREE POSITIONS AND EIGHT REVS ON THE FEATURE. GO BACK TO IJS SCHOOL AND THIS TIME SOBER." Things like that.

 

[icie]

I don't think it was ever established that Angela Nikodinov's mom was a regular poster on RSSIF. There was a poster with a name like "Podium99"--something like that, anyway--who claimed to have a competitive child and made an allusion to eastern Europe at some point along the way. Folks jumped to the conclusion that there was a Nikodinov connection. Later on, someone suggested that the poster might have been Trifun Zivanovic's mom.

I don't know either of the families, but my gut puts me in the Zivanovic camp. The posting style was sort of blunt and vaguely bragging, which was the very antithesis of Angela's on-ice persona, whereas Trifun played hockey until he was about 18. I thought at the time that the posts were more likely to have come from a hockey mom (not that I've every met one, except for Charlie White's mom).

That poster claimed her skater was from France. She did seem to know a lot about the happenings at The Detroit Skating Club.

 

[rfisher]

I suspect there is a significant difference in how fans view a sport then how the athletes view it.

 

[Seerek]

I love my wonky, purist niche interest. But it's also no sin to evolve.

It's interesting to compare the various Olympic Sport bodies in North America and the differing focal points of their mission statements. What matters more - Participation numbers at local level? International results of elite level? Social media impressions/Audience Numbers? The prestige of the College program?

Many/Most of the Olympic federations fully embrace their niche status, and aren't particularly interested in "dumbing down" their essence just to appease a casual viewer.

But I definitely roll my eyes when people want to make it more like other winter olympic sports. Just go watch those then.

I try and keep an eye on pretty much all the summer and winter Olympic sports throughout the calendar year, and I have to say that compared to other sports, figure skating needs to better "own" its identity and essence compared to other sports, instead of chasing the populist pie (that effectively isn't there anymore).

 

[Firedancer]

US Figure Skating is going to review and potentially update the tiers to add a weighing of the tiers possibly by next season, with additional changes possible going forward. (See #3.)
http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2018/01/07/264386954

 

[ZilphaK]

It's interesting to compare the various Olympic Sport bodies in North America and the differing focal points of their mission statements. What matters more - Participation numbers at local level? International results of elite level? Social media impressions/Audience Numbers? The prestige of the College program?

Many/Most of the Olympic federations fully embrace their niche status, and aren't particularly interested in "dumbing down" their essence just to appease a casual viewer.


I try and keep an eye on pretty much all the summer and winter Olympic sports throughout the calendar year, and I have to say that compared to other sports, figure skating needs to better "own" its identity and essence compared to other sports, instead of chasing the populist pie (that effectively isn't there anymore).

For some people, 6.0 was a "dumbed down" version of skating, I suppose. I've heard other arguments that IJS is too much spelling out of criteria, making skating a sport of cookie cutter programs...its own kind of dumbing down. I know that many think synchro or theater on ice or solo dance are "dumbed down" versions, as are club competitions. People hated/hate the addition of lyrics to competitive skating, maybe a consolation "dumbing down" for folks who need emotion spelled out for them instead of trusting the skater to do the work through artistry. I know coaches who think the removal of school figures was a massive dumbing down of figure skating. Elite figure skaters themselves are being allowed more of a voice on social media, and well, everyone sounds dumbed down on Twitter.

I think the goal, for most sports, is survival in some form. I tend to lean toward conservative (not in the political sense) when it comes to change. But there's room, I think, to hold on to pure forms -- in some form -- while also evolving. I don't think it's wrong to ask, "How can we survive" and make careful changes.

ETA: Now totally thinking of what my answer is to "What is the essence of the sport of figure skating?" Or "What is figure skating's identity?" Is it hard to get the answer to one sentence? I have immediate answers...but I may have to let this steep for a while. I'd love to hear others' answers.

 

[Rock2]

Ross' performance was far from pointless. He was a long shot, and he needed - apparently - more than a few mistakes from more than a few competitors to make the Olympic team. He did his part, but did not get ALL the help he needed. Adam had his worst performance in years and was only 5 points behind. If he'd done a lot worse, or missed both short and long program, maybe the calculation was different.

Not really. Jason was 6th, 20 pts behind, and was ranked ahead of Ross for the Olympic team. Adam, then, could have singled another 3 jumps and it wouldn't have made a difference.

Ross probably would have had to win to get on the team. Failing that I can't imagine how far back Adam and Jason would have needed to be for him to make it.

 

[Vash01]

The difference with hockey -- at least now -- is that the most talented players in the US are on NHL teams, making a lot of money (Capitals base salary is something like $695,000 a year, even if you're on the bench). NHL players are prohibited from heading to Olympics this year; it costs the NHL too much money. There are AHL players going and some college kids, and while I don't doubt it's a dream and a thrill and an honor to go to the Olympics, let alone win a medal, it's the Stanley Cup that is more prestigious, I'd say.

I'm on some hockey messageboards and I'm a Caps fan -- believe me, there's a lot of gnashing of teeth and "flouncing" every time the Caps -- the number one team in the Metropolitan Division -- lose to the lower ranked Penguins in the second round of playoffs. By rights the Caps should be a Stanley Cup Finalist, at least the past few years, but they never get past second round. And they sit home while teams with overall poorer seasons and fewer goals move on to win the prize. For Olympics, there is a mild interest in who is going -- a guy from our local AHL team is going -- but I don't think many would have noticed if he weren't picked. There is drama, for sure...but again, there is also a lot of slugging on the ice, so it feels like problems are worked out to catharsis, I guess.

There is some subjectivity in all sports -- maybe not in track as much or swimming, the "go in a straight line and reach the finish point" sports. But while other sports depend on technique to score, penalties and fouls come from players using illegal methods to stop the scoring. In figure skating, the technique, coupled with artistry, is what is being scored -- I guess it just feels more personal in a way, so fans take it more personally when judging seems flawed or rigged.

My husband always says, "Figure skating would be a sport if there were other skaters out there trying to prevent the person on the ice from doing their jumps and spins." He's kind of an idiot, but I get the point when comparing to team sports. No one is deducting points from Alex Ovechkin for the style on his slapshot. If he scores a point, who cares? If Crosby slew-foots him and the ref doesn't see it (as usual, heh), well...there's instant catharsis.

Maybe we all just need to yell at the judges and tech specialists more often during competition. "DUDE, YOU STINK. THAT SPIN HAD THREE POSITIONS AND EIGHT REVS ON THE FEATURE. GO BACK TO IJS SCHOOL AND THIS TIME SOBER." Things like that.

OT- Golf may be the cleanest sport of all. Nobody tries to attack another golfer. Each is playing against the course, not against other golfers. They even write their own scores.

 

[Clutz]

I know the discussions are endless on this board, how to make skating popular. For me, I'll keep watching til its gone. I just watch to enjoy, not to fix it.

But I definitely roll my eyes when people want to make it more like other winter olympic sports. Just go watch those then.

Incidentally these kinds of discussions are endemic to many arts. I know about it from one I like, opera. People don't like opera, young people aren't participating, etc. Let's make opera more like musicals or something real people like. I sure hope not...

You do realize that most of what you say makes no sense....right?

As for winter sports, I cringed when they added snowboarding and half pipe to the Olympics;yet, now, those are the highest ratings grabbers and most interesting Olympic sports.

 

[ZilphaK]

OT- Golf may be the cleanest sport of all. Nobody tries to attack another golfer. Each is playing against the course, not against other golfers. They even write their own scores.

This is, of course, as opposed to miniature golf, where at least one of my kids cries, one throws a club in frustration, hitting the other one, and I end each outing by swearing at my children and booking a Gyn visit, just to make sure my tubal didn't untie itself.

 

[jlai]

Nationals does have meaning for most as many don't really have a shot of getting sent anywhere.some may be hoping for assignments for next season or funding.

Sadly for Miner, since he is not continuing next season that kind of limits the rewards he can reap from the silver medal if he doesn't get assignments. It sucks for him surely, but it doesn't make nationals meaningless for everyone.

 

[Marco]

So you think that the federation should instruct the technical panels and judges to fudge the results of the competition in order to make the skaters they want to send to the Olympics come out on top? That sounds like a terrible idea to me.

I don't think they should, but I think they did. All the time. Calls for Mirai were uncharacteristically generous compared to calls she received internationally, and calls for Karen and Ashley were per usual. PCS for Bradie and Mirai were uncharacteristically generous compared to what they got earlier internationally, and PCS for Ashley were uncharacteristically low compared to what she got earlier internationally.

 

[Marco]

This whole thing would be resolved if there were no per country rules for Worlds and Olympics.

 

[vesperholly]

My husband always says, "Figure skating would be a sport if there were other skaters out there trying to prevent the person on the ice from doing their jumps and spins."

 

[ZilphaK]

This whole thing would be resolved if there were no per country rules for Worlds and Olympics.

Or...imagine there's no countries...it isn't hard to do....

 

[HeManSkaterDad]

Minority report: I'd rather see figure skating withdraw from the Olympics and emphasize more the artistry than attempt to be more like other winter Olympic sports.

Kudos to you for honesty, although I suspect your are only a minority in that you have the guts to say so.

 

[HeManSkaterDad]

I have a hard time with the idea that figure skating needs to change because people think the judging is confusing. I don't watch football very often and have no idea what's going on most of the time. The only reason that's not an issue is that a lot of people are fans of football (or played themselves) and so have taken the time to learn, which I haven't done. Isn't that on me?

No, it is not on you, the skating scoring system is infinitely more complicated than football. Here is everything you need to know to decide the winner in football. A touchdown is worth 6 points, a field goal 3, a kicked extra point 1. There is also a two point conversion and safety for two points. They are always worth those amounts, you either get all of the points or none.

I watched the national championship football game last night, a very close (overtime) event. I can ask a million fans who understand the basics of football why Alabama scored exactly 20 points in regulation instead of 19 and every one will be able to tell me exactly why. And be aware, had it been 19, we would have a different national champion.

If I ask a dozen skating fans what components Vincent Zhou should have received in his free skate, I am most likely to get 9 different answers. Not surprising, since none of the judges agreed with each other. In fact, three judges agreed with another judges more than half of the time, and these are, presumably, the top experts applying a precise (able to be measured down to the hundredth of a point) scoring system.

If the judges cannot agree on what the scores should be, how can you expect a casual fan to understand?

 

[barbk]

There are plenty of officiating disputes in football, and we even see the league issuing statements in days after games when they believe that the folks on the ground got it wrong. Easy enough to say how many points you get for a touchdown, but the arguments over what constitutes a "catch" go on endlessly. The rules even change depending on how much time is left to play in the game. Most casual football fans spend a lot more hours watching football than most casual skating fans spend watching figure skating -- and casual football fans flood talk radio with wild discussions of their impressions of how various plays should have been called in the NFL games.

 

[bardtoob]

US Figure Skating is going to review and potentially update the tiers to add a weighing of the tiers possibly by next season, with additional changes possible going forward. (See #3.)
http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2018/01/07/264386954

You tell them Sam! You tell them Nationals is worthless and only fit for lowly skaters that go to Regionals and Sectionals. The only competitions of any value when determining an Olympic Team are foreign Junior and Senior B, foreign GP, GPF, and ISU Championships. If a skaters has not qualified for an International competition other than SA at least by the Nationals two season prior to the Olympics, then they have no hope of making the Olympic Team

. . . I suppose that was supposed to be a burn, but it has been basically true for a long time except with Bradie since US Figure Skating was hopeless when it came to technical content.

 

[caseyedwards]

You tell them Sam! You tell them Nationals is worthless and only fit for lowly skaters that go to Regionals and Sectionals. The only competitions of any value when determining an Olympic Team are foreign Junior and Senior B, foreign GP, GPF, and ISU Championships. If a skaters has not qualified for an International competition other than SA at least by the Nationals two season prior to the Olympics, then they have no hope of making the Olympic Team

. . . I suppose that was supposed to be a burn, but it has been basically true for a long time except with Bradie since US Figure Skating was hopeless when it came to technical content.

Totally! This is getting to the heart of the matter. There is so much carryover from one season to the next. GP’s are assigned based on previous years! Not everyone can do it!

 

[aftershocks]

I wanted Ross to go. I’m disappointed but I also saw the writing on the wall. It’s been pretty clear you had to have a good season not just a good Nationals

Good season? Ross Miner had great programs and he had a good season too because in the end, he put it altogether for himself and for fans who love watching him skate! In addition, none of USFS' BOW criteria make much sense because skaters have no control over the assignments they are given, and the international judging process is highly political. Ross had announced this was his last season, and he went into it with a positive attitude and two great programs. He was only assigned one GP, so he was handicapped going in. Also, he's handicapped by how he's been consistently disparagingly viewed by international judges, which is not an accurate view of his actual high level skating talent. That's a lot of odds against him as he has no margin for error, and if he makes the slightest mistake, he's dropped like a rock. He was already dismissed and not expected to do well before the season started, and he was only assigned one GP event.

The competitive structure of figure skating is antiquated. That's the underlying problem and it will continue to be going forward until there's better leadership among feds and atop the ISU.

As far as the skaters themselves, they learn from the beginning that they have to accept judges' decisions, no questions asked. Many youngsters begin skating due to watching the Olympics and harboring dreams of becoming Olympians. Some happen to start skating for a variety of different reasons and then become hooked on the joy of skating, and perhaps gradually begin dreaming of the Olympics if they decide to pursue the elusive goal of reaching the highest levels of the sport. Figure skating has a lot of problems that are not being adequately addressed, and so OTT drama and controversies will continue. The sport really does not deserve any of the wonderful skaters who grace the sport with their dedication and hard work.

Bottom line: the skaters have no voice, and they realize they have to give so much more than they may ever receive because of the limited opportunities and the overly political judging system. They only have power over what they are able to do on the ice and that's all they have to hold onto when they perform their best, because the judges' decisions are based on a faulty scoring system, in addition to being subjective and political. And now the men's discipline is not only hampered by quads & questionable scoring, in the U.S. it's also impacted by selection committees basing their selections (aside from slam dunk champions) upon who is popular and well-liked and who has made a successful comeback from injury; and who is the new young up-and-comer with quads; and who has been able to make a name for themselves and break through the narrow window of competitive opportunities to achieve hard won success vs talented journeymen who have ended up not quite breaking through the narrow window of opportunity at just the right time.

Fortunately for them, many of these largely unrewarded journeymen including Ross Miner, Grant Hochstein, and internationally Sergei Voronov of Russia, skate because its their passion. Their best performances and most sparkling moments will never be forgotten by fans whose hearts have been uplifted. No matter that the skaters' hearts and their fans' hearts are often broken by the sport's unforgivable cruelty.

No matter what anyone thinks, Ashley Wagner has the right to feel the way she feels and to speak out in the way that she chooses. No matter what anyone thinks, Mark Mitchell has the right to feel the way he feels and to speak out in the way that he chooses. He was a skater whose Olympic dreams were crushed and now he's a coach who is witnessing a similar set of circumstances happening to a skater whom he has trained from childhood to manhood. It doesn't matter about the BOW criteria having been laid out when it's not an equal playing field for everyone in the first place and parts of the criteria are not attainable for some skaters, and the selection process decision-making is not transparent.

 

[misskarne]

So I wonder how many other people here realise that Grant's BOW is probably better than Ross' and technically, if they were going super-hardass...

I think BOW is necessary. You have to cover your options. I do think it was implemented a little clumsily and I think the best thing they should have done was pick Nathan, Adam and Ross. Vincent could do Worlds instead of Ross, like Max doing Worlds instead of Jason in 2014. Then you've picked the two clear form skaters and the silver medallist, but for the event where spots are on the line you can go with Vincent. Jason and Grant for 4CC and then one more selection based on either BOW or Nationals finish.

The thing with Vincent - if the PCS had been a little less wildly stupid, he'd have finished behind Adam anyway.

 

[aftershocks]

The thing with Vincent - if the PCS had been a little less wildly stupid, he'd have finished behind Adam anyway.

Yes, that's obvious as I mentioned in the other thread. Others have already mentioned this as well. And it can bear repeating again and again, because it also shows some ineptitude on the part of the judges who appear to have been shocked into not thinking straight. Give Adam credit on PCS despite those rare miscues. With what he had done all season and over the last three seasons, he surely deserves to be on the team.

Judges manipulated some placements in the sp for both singles events, so why cause headaches in the men's fp scoring for the selection committee to ineptly solve? Obviously Adam hurt himself by not being able to rotate that final jump. The first pop was apparently unavoidably caused by his blade sticking in the ice on takeoff, and then he became distracted by what had happened and he was unable to get himself together to successfully complete the final jump which would have lost him fewer points. Still, with Vincent's PCS being overly high, especially for a skate with so many clear URs and messy landings, there was no reason not to highly reward Adam for his superior PCS. They wanted Adam on the team and he'd done enough to be on the team.

Yep, Grant is one of those journeyman who slightly squeezed through that narrow window of opportunity, but let's be honest that he didn't quite make it all the way before he had to pull back as the window slammed shut. And now he's retiring with a heart full of gratitude for reaching some of his goals. Anyway, Grant's higher level of single quad mastery merely accounts for his BOW wow being in recent years only a slight bit fiercer than Ross Miner's.

 

[Deleted member 221]

I don't think they should, but I think they did. All the time. Calls for Mirai were uncharacteristically generous compared to calls she received internationally, and calls for Karen and Ashley were per usual. PCS for Bradie and Mirai were uncharacteristically generous compared to what they got earlier internationally, and PCS for Ashley were uncharacteristically low compared to what she got earlier internationally.

I had the complete opposite impression. Wagner's 3F+3T would have been called < by an international panel, and I think her lutz was a definite "e" and possibly a <<. An international panel would have also likely at least reviewed her flip and loop.

The number of underrotation calls for Karen Chen seemed excessive; was a definite about-face from the calling she received at U.S. Nationals last year (which I agree was generous); and seemed quite harsh in comparison to other skaters and even international panels. My theory at the time is that the technical panel was trying to hold her down, which off-set (and then some) any prop up she may have received from the judging panel.

The problem with PCS inflation is that it tends to reduce spread between great skaters and good skaters. Good skaters get more of an inflation (e.g., from 7 to 9) than great skaters (from 9 to 9.5). That said, I think Wagner was flat, looked like she was skating a new program, and deserved lower PCS than she received from an international panel, where she skated a three-year old comfortable program with attack.

 

[olympic]

The moral of the Miner saga - Going forward, U.S. competitors need to make every competition count. Don't throw any element away at any Senior B or GP event. Attempt and fall rather than pop. No 'peaking for Nationals'.

 

[Firedancer]

The moral of the Miner saga - Going forward, U.S. competitors need to make every competition count. Don't throw any element away at any Senior B or GP event. Attempt and fall rather than pop. No 'peaking for Nationals'.

This! And there cannot be any claims that coaches/skaters did not know.

 

[Bellanca]

^^ If only it were that easy. Sounds good in a post, though.

 

[berthesghost]

The moral of the Miner saga - Going forward, U.S. competitors need to make every competition count. Don't throw any element away at any Senior B or GP event. Attempt and fall rather than pop. No 'peaking for Nationals'.

exactly. This BOW crap has turned into just another “right to work” load of bollocks engineered to provide all of the spoils for just the chosen few. It’s like the old catch 22 they put 16 year olds through: can’t get a job without “experience” but can’t get experience without your first job. Next thing you know your working for free to gain experience. Sports used to be the great equalizer providing anyone with talent willing to work hard a chance to succeed. Now it too requires “prior experience” where teams are based on resume and the skating equivalent of an Ivy League degree. Making the team used to be part of those Rudy Galindo special moments at nats. Now a Tonya Harding could land a first ever jump and be left off a team for someone who plodded their way thru a seasons worth of comps. It’s one of the reasons why I hate the gps. Used to be a Peggy Fleming could do two or three comps a year and be a success. Now they gotta do six to eight and be penalized if everyday at work doesn’t shine like an interview. Ok, socialist rant over