SafeSport alleges "culture of grooming and abuse" in U.S. figure skating

[UGG]

How come no one was complaining about Safe Sport until John Coughlin ? Are the people advocating for John also advocating for others accused?

 

[mollymgr]

How come no one was complaining about Safe Sport until John Coughlin ? Are the people advocating for John also advocating for others accused?

As someone pointed out earlier, people are upset that John killed himself and SafeSport seems like an easy target of misdirected frustration. There are a lot of questions that are unanswered and are the source of that frustration. He was well known in skating unlike some of the others that have been mentioned. Most people probably learned about SafeSport due to this case.

 

[Japanfan]

His life was already completely destroyed forever. Why bother! He lost all his jobs. That’s why he killed himself. SafeSport provides no support to accused people. They publish their names so people can call them molesters and pretend a doctors visit can help.

Not necessarily. The results of the investigation might have been in his favour and cleared his name.

 

[caseyedwards]

How come no one was complaining about Safe Sport until John Coughlin ? Are the people advocating for John also advocating for others accused?

I didn’t know about this public list! At least I don’t remember knowing. I also didn’t see articles about people on the list bebfore Coughlin! I don’t think this list was supposed to be signal for reporters to write articles about the people. that didn’t happen until Coughlin. When the articles and comments were made and people brought up Nassar and started to share their molestation or abuse stories in Coughlin threads everything changed! You read a thread about John Coughlin and it’s abuse story after abuse story and things changed for me! That didn’t seem right to me! John Coughlin equaling abuse story!!

Not necessarily. The results of the investigation might have been in his favour and cleared his name.

But the name clearing wouldn’t necessarily mean he was ever hired again for skating jobs. Especially with the mystery source saying Coughlin was abusing minors

 

[Prancer]

I also didn’t see articles about people on the list bebfore Coughlin! I don’t think this list was supposed to be signal for reporters to write articles about the people. that didn’t happen until Coughlin.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/spor...4bfff693d2b_story.html?utm_term=.af3da269e506

https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...han-figure-skating-coach-suspended/410663002/

https://www.bizjournals.com/tampaba...-s-figure-skating-coach-loses-request-in.html

https://abcnews.go.com/Sports/delib...ting-reckoning-sexual-abuse/story?id=53689618

https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/case/24519067/Callaghan_v_US_Center_for_Safe_Sport

http://www.fox9.com/news/twin-cities-figure-skating-coach-accused-of-sexually-abusing-skate

When the articles and comments were made and people brought up Nassar and started to share their molestation or abuse stories in Coughlin threads everything changed!

People were sharing their stories because of people like you who were insisting that his name shouldn't have been revealed or that people who knew him knew he couldn't be guilty--because their experiences said otherwise. They weren't accusing John Coughlin by relating their experiences. They were explaining their points of view.

Especially with the mystery source saying Coughlin was abusing minors

How do you know what the "mystery source" said, or even if there was a mystery source? There were three accusations that came up at different times. Are you trying to say that one person made all three complaints? Or that you know that the two complaints about minors came from a third-party while the one involving an adult did not? Or what?

 

[caseyedwards]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/spor...4bfff693d2b_story.html?utm_term=.af3da269e506

https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...han-figure-skating-coach-suspended/410663002/

https://www.bizjournals.com/tampaba...-s-figure-skating-coach-loses-request-in.html

https://abcnews.go.com/Sports/delib...ting-reckoning-sexual-abuse/story?id=53689618

https://www.pacermonitor.com/public/case/24519067/Callaghan_v_US_Center_for_Safe_Sport

http://www.fox9.com/news/twin-cities-figure-skating-coach-accused-of-sexually-abusing-skate

I wasn’t sure how much this had been connected to SafeSports list. Seems A little bit more incidental in this case

How do you know what the "mystery source" said, or even if there was a mystery source? There were three accusations that came up at different times. Are you trying to say that one person made all three complaints? Or that you know that the two complaints about minors came from a third-party while the one involving an adult did not? Or what?

This is the quote from the article:

“Coughlin was facing three reports of sexual misconduct against him, two of them involving minors, according to a person with knowledge of the situation who was not authorized to talk publicly about the matter.“

So Brennan is saying someone is telling her Coughlin was accused of something with minors. I dont know if the three reports were made by the same person. Everyone or one person who was accusing Coughlin has chosen to be totally secret and not be public. Totally secret! Hidden! who Maybe it’s all a lie! I don’t know. But that’s in the article. So Coughlin would have been dealing with this when he killed himself.

 

[meggonzo]

Everyone or one person who was accusing Coughlin has chosen to be totally secret and not be public. Totally secret! Hidden!

Gee, I wonder why...

 

[Prancer]

I wasn’t sure how much this had been connected to SafeSports list. Seems A little bit more incidental in this case

Does it? Where do you think the information came from in the first place if not the list?

But where! Is your defense! Of Callaghan! If the principle is that the names of people accused of sexual misconduct should not be revealed until investigations are complete, then you should be here.

This is the quote from the article:

“Coughlin was facing three reports of sexual misconduct against him, two of them involving minors, according to a person with knowledge of the situation who was not authorized to talk publicly about the matter.“

So Brennan is saying someone is telling her Coughlin was accused of something with minors. I dont know if the three reports were made by the same person. Everyone or one person who was accusing Coughlin has chosen to be totally secret and not be public. Totally secret! Hidden! who Maybe it’s all a lie!

The first report, which did not come from a minor, led to SafeSport’s decision on Dec. 17 to restrict Coughlin’s eligibility to participate in his sport pending final resolution of the matter. News of that disciplinary action was reported by USA TODAY on Jan. 7.

The other two reports, both of which involved minors at the time of the alleged sexual misconduct, came to SafeSport within the past few weeks and resulted in its decision to elevate Coughlin’s disciplinary record to an interim suspension Thursday night.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...-coughlin-death-sexual-misconduct/2632092002/

As for the rest, I can only refer you to: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...u-s-figure-skating.105362/page-7#post-5550334

You are, of course, free to dismiss this as an anonymous internet post.

You are also still completely free to answer my question about how SafeSport should proceed while protecting all concerned. If your position is well-reasoned and reasonable, it should be easy to do, even if you throw in exclamation points everywhere.

 

[caseyedwards]

Does it? Where do you think the information came from in the first place if not the list?

But where! Is your defense! Of Callaghan! If the principle is that the names of people accused of sexual misconduct should not be revealed until investigations are complete, then you should be here.



The first report, which did not come from a minor, led to SafeSport’s decision on Dec. 17 to restrict Coughlin’s eligibility to participate in his sport pending final resolution of the matter. News of that disciplinary action was reported by USA TODAY on Jan. 7.

The other two reports, both of which involved minors at the time of the alleged sexual misconduct, came to SafeSport within the past few weeks and resulted in its decision to elevate Coughlin’s disciplinary record to an interim suspension Thursday night.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...-coughlin-death-sexual-misconduct/2632092002/

As for the rest, I can only refer you to: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...u-s-figure-skating.105362/page-7#post-5550334

You are, of course, free to dismiss this as an anonymous internet post.

You are also still completely free to answer my question about how SafeSport should proceed while protecting all concerned. If your position is well-reasoned and reasonable, it should be easy to do, even if you throw in exclamation points everywhere.

Maurizi was very important to publicizing allegations against Callaghan again last year. He was on TV and giving print interviews and just going everywhere!

What is known now is that protection of the accused is impossible with public scarlet letter list because of people like brennan and others. So they have no choice but to abolish the public Scarlett letter list and go to more discreet methods like letters or personal visits and tell the accused to take a “vacation” funded by SafeSport.

 

[Prancer]

Maurizi was very important to publicizing allegations against Callaghan again last year. He was on TV and giving print interviews and just going everywhere!

What is known now is that protection of the accused is impossible with public scarlet letter list because of people like brennan and others. So they have no choice but to abolish the public Scarlett letter list and go to more discreet methods like letters or personal visits and tell the accused to take a “vacation” funded by SafeSport.

Now why are you using a funky font like this?

Maurizi was very important to publicizing allegations against Callaghan again last year. He was on TV and giving print interviews and just going everywhere!

So you're okay with that? And your objection to people openly discussing unverified charges of sexual misconduct in the media and on web forums is not that it could destroy someone's life or anything like that, it's just that the SafeSport list itself is the problem?

As long as we are clear here on what you are objecting to.

So they have no choice but to abolish the public Scarlett letter list and go to more discreet methods like letters or personal visits and tell the accused to take a “vacation” funded by SafeSport.

Well, of course they have a choice. I choose to think your position here is both specious and ridiculous. A vacation--what a grand idea. Because that won't interfere with anyone else's career or anything--among other things.

So if all you've got is a laughably inconsistent position on sexual misconduct investigations and that vacation idea, that's enough for me.

If you're going to bother to respond, use the default font, please.

Does anyone have anything intelligent to say? Because once again, this topic is really circling the drain and I'm not seeing the point of keeping it open.

 

[skateboy]

You are also still completely free to answer my question about how SafeSport should proceed while protecting all concerned. If your position is well-reasoned and reasonable, it should be easy to do, even if you throw in exclamation points everywhere.

I've avoided speaking about this--and I can't speak for @caseyedwards (whom you were addressing) --but for me, the biggest issue is that John was accused not of sexual assault, but of sexual misconduct. That's a big difference, but the minute some people hear that, they automatically think of (and start to assume) sexual assault, rape, child molestation and more. There were quite a lot of people associating John with Larry Nassar and, in my estimation, all of these accusations--along with the ongoing media reports--did indeed lead to John's taking his own life. I apologize for posting my speculation.

Not saying that sexual misconduct should go unpunished, not at all. As for Safe Sport, I don't know what I think, the organization seems unorganized to me. I do wonder why the victims didn't just go to the police.

 

[Prancer]

I've avoided speaking about this--and I can't speak for @caseyedwards (whom you were addressing) --but for me, the biggest issue is that John was accused not of sexual assault, but of sexual misconduct. That's a big difference, but the minute some people hear that, they automatically think of (and start to assume) sexual assault, rape, child molestation and more. There were quite a lot of people associating John with Larry Nassar and, in my estimation, all of these accusations--along with the ongoing media reports--did indeed lead to John's taking his own life. I apologize for posting my speculation.

Not saying that sexual misconduct should go unpunished, not at all. As for Safe Sport, I don't know what I think, the organization seems unorganized to me. I do wonder why the victims didn't just go to the police.

So what should SafeSport do about the way people respond to reports? And why do you think SafeSport seems unorganized?

 

[skateboy]

So what should SafeSport do about the way people respond to reports? And why do you think SafeSport seems unorganized?

From what I've read and heard about SafeSport, it's unclear to me what their real purpose is. Reporting allegations to a sports organization (i.e., USFSA)? Don't the police do the same thing? Most accused charged with such crimes lose their jobs and, in most instances, the cases actually go to court.

I do think that SafeSport, in their reports, could be more clear about the nature of the allegations.

 

[caseyedwards]

Now why are you using a funky font like this?



So you're okay with that? And your objection to people openly discussing unverified charges of sexual misconduct in the media and on web forums is not that it could destroy someone's life or anything like that, it's just that the SafeSport list itself is the problem?

As long as we are clear here on what you are objecting to.



Well, of course they have a choice. I choose to think your position here is both specious and ridiculous. A vacation--what a grand idea. Because that won't interfere with anyone else's career or anything--among other things.

So if all you've got is a laughably inconsistent position on sexual misconduct investigations and that vacation idea, that's enough for me.

If you're going to bother to respond, use the default font, please.

Does anyone have anything intelligent to say? Because once again, this topic is really circling the drain and I'm not seeing the point of keeping it open.

I copied the name of the Callaghan accuser and the whole post defaulted to the font his name was in. I didn’t think it was a big deal!

To be blunt accusers are dismissed all the time. But an official sports body suspendeding someone is different. I would not prefer accusers make claims on TV but everyone saw what SafeSport meant for Coughlin. That’s no good.

SafeSport Being discreet is very important now in post Nassar and post metoo. They must not allow whole lives to be destroyed before proof is irrefutable and police are called to arrest the person or if statutes of limitations are up there is other proof that is publicized

 

[mollymgr]

I've avoided speaking about this--and I can't speak for @caseyedwards (whom you were addressing) --but for me, the biggest issue is that John was accused not of sexual assault, but of sexual misconduct. That's a big difference, but the minute some people hear that, they automatically think of (and start to assume) sexual assault, rape, child molestation and more. There were quite a lot of people associating John with Larry Nassar and, in my estimation, all of these accusations--along with the ongoing media reports--did indeed lead to John's taking his own life. I apologize for posting my speculation.

Not saying that sexual misconduct should go unpunished, not at all. As for Safe Sport, I don't know what I think, the organization seems unorganized to me. I do wonder why the victims didn't just go to the police.

That's actually not accurate. Here is the definition per SafeSport/USFSA.

https://www.usfsa.org/content/SafeSport Definitions.pdf

Sexual misconduct involves any touching or non-touching sexual interaction that is nonconsensual or forced, coerced or manipulated, or perpetrated in an aggressive, harassing, exploitative or threatening manner. It also includes any sexual interaction between an athlete and an individual with evaluative, direct or indirect authority which is considered an imbalance of power. Last, any act or conduct described as sexual abuse or misconduct under federal or state law (e.g., sexual abuse, sexual exploitation, rape) qualifies as sexual misconduct. Notes: • An imbalance of power is always assumed between an athlete, regardless of age, and an adult in a position of authority (such as a coach, official, director, employee, parent or volunteer.) • Minors cannot consent to sexual activity with an adult. All sexual interaction between an adult and a minor is strictly prohibited.

 

[skateboy]

That's actually not accurate. Here is the definition per SafeSport/USFSA.

https://www.usfsa.org/content/SafeSport Definitions.pdf

Thanks for sharing. Well, now I'm more confused than ever. Is there a difference between sexual misconduct and sexual assault or not?

 

[mollymgr]

Thanks for sharing. Well, now I'm more confused than ever. Is there a difference between sexual misconduct and sexual assault or not?

https://safesport.org/userviolations/search
If you go to the SafeSport site and type in Larry Nassar, it comes up with "Sexual misconduct - involving a minor". I think that is the general term they use even if it involves sexual assault.

 

[Japanfan]

But the name clearing wouldn’t necessarily mean he was ever hired again for skating jobs. Especially with the mystery source saying Coughlin was abusing minors

People have endured worse and gone on with their lives, finding new ways to earn a living if their career has been ended (i.e. doctor who committed malpractice).

Life is precious to many people, even when facing adversity. Unfortunately some reach such low levels of despair and depression that they can't see any way forward.

 

[Prancer]

To be blunt accusers are dismissed all the time. But an official sports body suspendeding someone is different.

I'm just gonna leave that right there.

 

[5Ali3]

I've avoided speaking about this--and I can't speak for @caseyedwards (whom you were addressing) --but for me, the biggest issue is that John was accused not of sexual assault, but of sexual misconduct.

Has no one looked at this list that they are criticizing, that they are saying caused John to take his life? Has no one looked at this list that they are saying is so harmful to coaches that is must be eliminated, even if that means that more children will be abused during an investigation?

Go look at the list. Safesport.org, then Disciplinary Records. It's searchable by sport. Search for a big sport, so you get a variety of records, but not too big. Let's say you search for figure skating. Look at the listed violations. What are the possible listed violations?

All interim measures say "Allegations of misconduct." Why "allegations"? Because at that point in the investigation, there is no determination of a final finding. Why "misconduct"? To protect both the accused and the victim. When the Center first opened, the public database included more specific descriptions. It was interesting knowing the specifics, but it wasn't fair to the victims or the accused. It was too easy to identify who had allegedly done what to whom.

Final measures say: "Sexual misconduct," "Sexual misconduct - involving a minor," "Criminal disposition - sexual misconduct," "Criminal disposition - involving a minor," and a small handful of other violations, like "Intimate relationship - involving a minor." (You can read the SafeSport code to translate that, but if it were your spouse, you'd probably say something like, "He/she has been having an emotional affair, but they haven't had sex.")

That's a big difference, but the minute some people hear that, they automatically think of (and start to assume) sexual assault, rape, child molestation and more.

"Allegations of sexual misconduct" can include all of those. The allegations against the figure skating coaches currently listed with "allegations of misconduct" collectively include all of those, including the etc. (I am not saying every one of the five have committed all three of those plus the etc. I am saying that between all of them, the allegations include all of those forms of sexual assault, along with a number of additional allegations.)

I do wonder why the victims didn't just go to the police.

What makes you think that they didn't? What makes you think that the police weren't contacted before SafeSport? What makes you think the police didn't contact SafeSport? What makes you think the police weren't the ones who requested the Interim Suspension while they investigated? That's happened in several cases.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I do wonder why the victims didn't just go to the police.

What SafeSportdefines as prohibited behavior under a signed professional code of conduct subject to professional sanctions and prohibitions is not necessarily illegal. In Colorado, a 26-year-old can have a sexual relationship with a 17-year-old, in many states, two adults can have sexual relationships regardless of their professional association -- only some states make it illegal for people in authority to have sex with people deemed under their authority -- and it is not illegal for an adult to comfort someone behind closed doors. The police, prosecutor, and courts have no basis for prosecution. If those relationships or actions are between coaches and students, for example, they violate SafeSport's code of conduct, but that in itself doesn't make them illegal.

If SafeSport requires victims to go to the police in every case, the police can note the complaint, but that doesn't mean they or a prosecutor will or should address it any further if no law was broken.

 

[kwanfan1818]

And, if all of the media surrounding the #MeToo movement and the coverage of the Larry Nassar cases and the coverage of how many rape kits are not tested, etc. has not made it clear why victims do not go to the police in all circumstances when there is illegal activity, and how, even if they do, little is done, I don't think there is hope.

 

[Vagabond]

I've avoided speaking about this--and I can't speak for @caseyedwards (whom you were addressing) --but for me, the biggest issue is that John was accused not of sexual assault, but of sexual misconduct. That's a big difference, but the minute some people hear that, they automatically think of (and start to assume) sexual assault, rape, child molestation and more....

Not saying that sexual misconduct should go unpunished, not at all. As for Safe Sport, I don't know what I think, the organization seems unorganized to me. I do wonder why the victims didn't just go to the police.

Further to what @5Ali3 and @Prancer have already posted in response, I must note that SafeSport defines "sexual misconduct" as

any touching or non-touching sexual interaction that is nonconsensual or forced, coerced or manipulated, or perpetrated in an aggressive, harassing, exploitative or threatening manner. It also includes any sexual interaction between an athlete and an individual with evaluative, direct or indirect authority which is considered an imbalance of power. Last, any act or conduct described as sexual abuse or misconduct under federal or state law (e.g., sexual abuse, sexual exploitation, rape) qualifies as sexual misconduct.

https://www.usfsa.org/content/SafeSport Definitions.pdf

There is a lot of activity that falls within the definition that most people, including most victims and most police officers, would not consider to be criminal activity, e.g., making harassing, sexual-tinged remarks to someone of any age or manipulating another adult into having sex. So maybe it was that. Or, maybe it was sexual assault or some other sort of sexual abuse or misconduct recognized as such under the law. That still doesn't mean that the accusers recognized it for what it was at the time or that they were emotionally prepared to report it at the time.

And, in the end, sexual assault itself is vastly underreported. I would suggest using Google if you want to learn about the extent and reasons for this.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I keep reading. I learned that "misconduct" term is all inclusive, and does not excludes "criminal behavior" and can include "abuse". So that makes it more clear for me why what is reported under term "misconduct" can be not just a "behavioral misdemeanor" but something that is in general law can be considered a "crime" (like harassment, coercion, aggression, etc.). So, now i no longer have an issue with classification of "misconduct" as some "minor inconvenience, unpleasantness" to a victim, if it is a general term that can also include criminal elements of "offence, force and violence".

Still have the following question about "abuse of power", between "student" and "coach/teacher". If people say that it is about "power", and not specifically about "sex", and yet i see that what is brought to light is "all about sex", then how would the following situation be classified.

- 18 year old skater/student. 30-40 year old coach/teacher. Very close relationship of many years.
- Coach/teacher is married to a Financial adviser or a Stock broker.
- 18 year old skater/student inherits money/wins a lottery/receives a big amount from sponsor/prize money.
- Coach/teacher offers to skater/student the services of his/her spouse, to invest through the services.
- The "financial specialist" spouse makes a bad deal (maybe not intentionally, no fraud, just wrong decisions), and student/skater loses all the money.

Or, if a teacher/coach invites a student/skater to invest in joint real estate? or to open a private school together?

Is this situation an abuse of power and can it be reported? And if not a "loss of money, then the mere fact of "skating/school teacher" getting involved in "student/skater" finances and influencing?

 

[Artistic Skaters]

I do wonder why the victims didn't just go to the police.

Complainants have the ability to pursue recourse through either or both processes depending on the circumstances of the case. They have the right to seek redress under either process, both processes when applicable, or not at all. One process is sports arbitration & the other is public law. Any case brought to SafeSport could apply to one or both, so I don't really see a reason to argue or challenge this point rather than simply accept the two separately operating processes in place & what each can or cannot provide to the complainants.

 

[Spun Silver]

I keep reading. I learned that "misconduct" term is all inclusive, and does not excludes "criminal behavior" and can include "abuse". So that makes it more clear for me why what is reported under term "misconduct" can be not just a "behavioral misdemeanor" but something that is in general law can be considered a "crime" (like harassment, coercion, aggression, etc.). So, now i no longer have an issue with classification of "misconduct" as some "minor inconvenience, unpleasantness" to a victim, if it is a general term that can also include criminal elements of "offence, force and violence".

Still have the following question about "abuse of power", between "student" and "coach/teacher". If people say that it is about "power", and not specifically about "sex", and yet i see that what is brought to light is "all about sex", then how would the following situation be classified.

- 18 year old skater/student. 30-40 year old coach/teacher. Very close relationship of many years.
- Coach/teacher is married to a Financial adviser or a Stock broker.
- 18 year old skater/student inherits money/wins a lottery/receives a big amount from sponsor/prize money.
- Coach/teacher offers to skater/student the services of his/her spouse, to invest through the services.
- The "financial specialist" spouse makes a bad deal (maybe not intentionally, no fraud, just wrong decisions), and student/skater loses all the money.

Or, if a teacher/coach invites a student/skater to invest in joint real estate? or to open a private school together?

Is this situation an abuse of power and can it be reported? And if not a "loss of money, then the mere fact of "skating/school teacher" getting involved in "student/skater" finances and influencing?

SafeSport deals with sexual matters. This sounds like a civil court case.

 

[Tinami Amori]

SafeSport deals with sexual matters. This sounds like a civil court case.

Is that a fact? so i am right, that "sex" is singled out as something "more evil/dangerous" than losing for example all your money because of "coach's/person in power" influence.

So then it is true, that "oh, no! that scary sex!!", run to SafeSport! But if your coach's wife loses all your money, oh, just take it to court and figure it out there... no suspensions, no scandals...

I rather have an annoying relationship for some duration of time, or have my butt pinched, than lose all my money...

 

[Spun Silver]

Is that a fact? so i am right, that "sex" is singled out as something "more evil/dangerous" than losing for example all your money because of "coach's/person in power" influence. I rather have an annoying relationship for some duration of time, or have my butt pinched, then lose all my money...

I think you're correct. See SS's Report a Concern Page:
https://www.safesport.org/report-a-concern

 

[Prancer]

SafeSport deals with sexual matters. This sounds like a civil court case.

SafeSport also deals with bullying and physical and emotional abuse. I know of one well-known former skater, now coach, who was reported for physical abuse.

But as they say on Law and Order:SVU, "sexually based offenses are considered especially heinous."

Except by some people who insist on minimizing the issue.

have my butt pinched.

 

[Tinami Amori]

SafeSport also deals with bullying and physical and emotional abuse. I know of one well-known former skater, now coach, who was reported for physical abuse.

Well, at least it is more than just "sex issues"..

Emotional abuse is so subjective.... I am sure there is a student who is getting all D's and F's, and feels "emotionally abused" when a teacher tells him "you did badly on the exam" while expecting to hear "nice try, hope you do better next time"...

But as they say on Law and Order:SVU, "sexually based offenses are considered especially heinous."

I can only imagine what you would say if quoted a TV Show comment as a "fact and truth"...

Except by some people who insist on minimizing the issue.

Not minimizing. For fairness sake simply expanding the range of offences that can hurt someone's life by "power imbalance"..