Tessa Virtue & Scott Moir, #46 : Until the End of Time

[Goody2shoes]

This eye-opening style of arguments is unnecessary, I'm a professional dancer, (not ballroom dancer), but I know perfectly this technique and whole specific aesthetics. I'm aware about dance styles, dance techniques and cultural references associated with dance origins. "Let's go party" - it's a "short cuts" expression and frankly I was referring to Scott's own words, when he was talking about their "unorthodox" music choices, that SD will be like a big or great party. As for interpretation of Latin dance, it's very clear that Tessa and Scott are trying to capture strictly ballroom dancing style, the certain articulation of movement and the body expression. Yes, they have right to arrange their program in style they like, they can choose "Sympathy for the devil" instead of "Besame mucho" because The Rolling Stones song has required rumba rhythm, (however song and music is not only about rhythm).But when I watch the program as a complete composition of choreography, music,particular style of dancing and costumes, it's natural that i will have my own personal judgment based on my sense of esthetics and cultural experience.

I mean you no offence specifically in tagging your post earlier. My comment was meant for posters in general on what i thought and perceived V/M's SD to be. (Please also note I'm no professional dancer. Just a casual observer) And yes, I think that everyone, including yourself, has the right to have an opinion/interpretation or taste on a particular performance. So feel free to disagree ... respectfully.

To be clear, I think this season is great because of the broader range of Latin American rhythms skaters can choose from. If not mistaken, Cha Cha, Rhumba, Mambo, Salsa, Samba, Meringue, Salsa or any closely related Latin rhythms. In comparison to 2011-12 season, skaters are constricted to choose to just these (Cha Cha, Rhumba, Samba, Mambo, Merengue)

Even so, does it say (for this style dance at least) that one should or could only dance to a song with the proper words to make the dance itself make sense? Is it not dance is how you feel/interpret to what you hear in the beat?

 

[lauravvv]

lauravvv it is funny that of everything posted lately you take offence to artsy fartsy. Perhaps you should try lecturing P/C ubers about the nasty things they are posting instead. See rustyskates post above to start.

I did not say that "artsy fartsy" is worse than or even on the same level as what rustyskate and some others P/C ubers are writing. + I was going to comment (and am still going to comment when I have more time) on those posts, but your post derailed me. I absolutely dislike seeing such nasty comments about Tessa/Scott and their programs from other teams ubers, but, sad as it is, I have also come to expect them, so it's sometimes just as (if not even more) unpleasant to see similar comments from fellow V/M fans about other teams, their programs and fans as I don't want to think that we are the same as those P/C/ D/W/ other team ubers. In this particular case the comment drew my attention even more because it came together with a reproach to P/C ubers about the name calling they are doing. Unfortunately, the reproach about name calling somewhat looses it's credibility when the person reproaching those people is doing the same (using name calling) in the same sentence/post.

I personally do not like costumes from SD and the whole concept of this program in simple style "let's go party". Maybe I expected from them more tender, sophisticated and sensual Latino based on original music and dance, more in Brazilian, Cuban or Cape Verde vibe. But in MR Tessa does not look like a prostitute and she is not vulgar, however "Roxanne" is a song about a prostitute, isn’t it. So maybe this remark was rather about that and Satine character.

Yes, the song is about a prostitute, but Satine was not actually a prostitute. Women who performed and still perform at Moulin Rouge were not and are not prostitutes, they are entertainers/performers. People don't normally call striptease dancers prostitutes, and the women who performed/perform at Moulin Rouge were not/are not even exactly striptease dancers. And Satine was a star of the show (singer and dancer) at Moulin Rouge, not a prostitute. She may have been a courtesan (a woman who accepts expensive gifts/material goods, not just simply money, for being with a man, including for being intimate with him, without being married to him - at the time such women were called courtesans, but now such a term doesn't exist as it's pretty common among "normal" young women). But it's not shown in a direct way. Men could have just as well given her expensive gifts simply because they adored her for her beauty and talent.

In any case, Satine was forced to become a courtesan in a sense (not exactly a prostitute) only when a rich man offered the director of Moulin Rouge to finance a huge show with Satine as it's star for the opportunity of being with her. Up until then it had obviously been her choice whether to become intimate with any of the men who were giving her gifts. That's what made it even more tragic. Satine had fallen in love and did not want to sleep with the rich patron, but she also did not want Christian to know how deathly ill she was as she did not want him to suffer along with her. Giving up the life as the star of Moulin Rouge and being with Christian would mean that he would know and would be forced to experience her sickness and tragic death much too soon, and would be even more hurt because of it than if she simply left him (or so she obviously thought). Of course, in the end it happened anyway.

Sorry for the long explanation. It's just that many people mistakenly think that Satine is a prostitute when it's not quite so. The song 'Roxanne' (originally a song of the legendary band The Police) being about a prostitute also reinforces that thought.

But the Papadakis/Cizeron uber who mentioned a prostitute was not speaking directly about Satine. The exact (or near exact) quote was that comparing V/M's program to P/C's was like "comparing the beauty of a prostitute to the beauty of a godess". Most likely that statement was also based on the uber thinking that Satine is a prostitute, though.

 

[Shayii]

I'm curious who these "honored people in Russian figure skating" this quote is referring to:

Many honored people in Russian figure skating do not hide their admiration for the new free dance of Tessa Virtue / Scott Moir?
– Honestly, I did not hear about it. I know that many admire them, their skating, but I also heard a lot of positive feedback about our programs. I do not read forums and what they write on the Internet. I do not know who and what is talking about. I take into account opinion of experts – those people who have spent many years in figure skating and judge it from a completely different angle, not people who, at times, allow themselves completely unreasonable criticism of someone and the same unreasonable admiration of someone.

@pani do you know who these people are? article

 

[chantilly]

Actually isn't Roxanne in MR really about the jealousy and emotions of the Ewan Mcgregor character.
His anger and jealousy while watching Satine with the rich patron, makes him compare Satine with the character in the Roxanne song.

 

[pani]

I'm curious who these "honored people in Russian figure skating" this quote is referring to: @pani do you know who these people are? article

No.

 

[marbri]

Actually isn't Roxanne in MR really about the jealousy and emotions of the Ewan Mcgregor character.
His anger and jealousy while watching Satine with the rich patron, makes him compare Satine with the character in the Roxanne song.

Yes it is. But I guess we shouldn't interrupt people over reading into things with facts

 

[asunta]

Where did you found rumba rhythm in "Sympathy for the devil"

Fortunately you are vigilant.
I originally mentioned two titles "Sympathy for the devil" and "Hotel California" but then I edited post and only rumba left.
"Sympathy for the devil" is of course Samba rhythm and Hotel California Rumba.

Really? So dancers don't need to move on rhythm, but on melodie, words what else?
It's not about ice dance. You could read in ice dance rulebook they need to move on rhythm and this is most important part of ice dance.

Please, there is no need to instruct me what I should read, I never questioned that Tessa and Scott choice of music is against the rulebook, or they did not fulfilled required elements.
My remark was referring to whole reception of the songs. As people receives songs and usually we do not concentrate only on rhythm, but also on melody, the voice timbre, etc. Some songs and music are considered as more dancing. Some songs are simply pleasing, you want to listen them over and over and some are nerve-racking.

As for dancers if we talk on the side note, it's very complex matter, some type of dancing are more rythymic than others. Some choreographers concentrate more on melody than rhythm. Besides its usually the flowing process between rhythm and melody when we are dancing. As for words they are not completely irrelevant to whole reception of song. Many songs have their own history behind and subtext. You can use the words and underline their meanings by certain moves or gestures or contradict them.

 

[VarBar]

In my book, Tessa and Scott have great material to work with this season and quite superior to the programs they skated last season. Overall, I did like Prince but never posted enthusiastically about that program because I found the choreography rather predictable most of the time. By contrast, with this year's latin dance, I really didn't know what move they were going to do next and this kept my interest alive from the first beat to the last. Holds true for Moulin Rouge too. I wouldn't go for major changes in the free dance because sometimes when you want to change something dramatically, you might end up making things worse instead of making them better. I'd just tweak the ending a bit to create a climax there.
Other than that, it all depends on V\M to skate the latin and MR to full potential, read gain more speed and power as the season progresses, make their transitions more fluid and try to constantly get high levels on all the elements. If they can do all that and there's no doubt in my mind that they can, I am trustful we'll see a great result from them at the Olympics. As it seems, they got positive feedback from international judges and apparently from others as well.

 

[forthewin]

For a self-claimed dancer who can't get Rumba and Samba rhythm right, I don't know how much more I should listen to.

 

[Isabelle.G]

Problem is Satine is no Carmen, and so far, she's playing it Carmen like in the Tango part.
That is why there is a problem in the choreography connecting the two parts and they have lot of time to correct that.

I think you have a point. Carmen was a masterpiece and skating to the first part of MR like in Carmen is fine, but then there comes the second part and somehow it just doesn't fit in. (for me, at least). But I'm sure the next time we'll see them, many things will be changed.

 

[puglover]

I am all for programs "growing" and small improvements being made as judges have input but I, for one, hope they do not feel the need to make major changes. In past competitive seasons they have seemed to have to relearn so much of either the short dance or the free dance and that may have doomed them to fewer perfect performances. MR seems like a fully-cooked concept that Tessa, Scott and their coaches have fully committed to and not at all like their situation going into the Sochi Olympics. I know they want to please their fans but lots would have had a problem with them playing it safe as well so I say - if they love this - don't change it. It is a different audience for the Olympics and I am glad they have more familiar music that more casual fans can hopefully get into.

 

[kittysk8ts]

I am all for programs "growing" and small improvements being made as judges have input but I, for one, hope they do not feel the need to make major changes. In past competitive seasons they have seemed to have to relearn so much of either the short dance or the free dance and that may have doomed them to fewer perfect performances. MR seems like a fully-cooked concept that Tessa, Scott and their coaches have fully committed to and not at all like their situation going into the Sochi Olympics. I know they want to please their fans but lots would have had a problem with them playing it safe as well so I say - if they love this - don't change it. It is a different audience for the Olympics and I am glad they have more familiar music that more casual fans can hopefully get into.

Agree 100%. Going into Sochi both programs changed dramatically from their debuts and Tessa at one point said they were up to 31 edits for Seasons. They cannot establish muscle memory with so many changes throughout the season. I hope they only make minor edits for this reason and because I selfishly love both programs

 

[Goody2shoes]

I would agree to a degree of what happened at Sochi Olympics. Perhaps i may be opening a “can of worms” by stating that that year (or even two years prior to olympics) v/m was made not to win even if they did the necessary edits or perfect their elements in their programs.

My greatest hope/wish is that with the transparency of judges and some semblances of (realistic appropriate) scoring at all competitions, it will give ice dance back some credence and encouragement to skaters (and future skaters) who trained hard and expect to compete. To be judged fairly and be awarded success...with merit.

 

[double runner]

I am tired of all the flack Tessa and Scott receive for their programs. Technically, nobody can touch them in the SD. Heck, nobody comes close to their rhumba pattern.

I don't want to bash but has anyone seen what some fans are doing with P/C's programs? Changing their music with previous year's music and then overlaying their skating? Their programs are very similar so please, I don't want to hear about V/M using "recycled" lifts.

 

[Miloune]

I am tired of all the flack Tessa and Scott receive for their programs. Technically, nobody can touch them in the SD. Heck, nobody comes close to their rhumba pattern.

I don't want to bash but has anyone seen what some fans are doing with P/C's programs? Changing their music with previous year's music and then overlaying their skating? Their programs are very similar so please, I don't want to hear about V/M using "recycled" lifts.

Lol I've see those videos and people claiming we could switch the musics are delusional (or have no artistic/musical sense, your choice).

(My comment has no relation regarding VM lifts, I have no complaint about them I think they fit their music and are great so why not keep them?!).

 

[chantilly]

Where is this happening?
YouTube.
Anyway sure it's to combat the commments regarding P and C having very similar programs for 4 years.
It's ridiculous. Every Ice Dance programme would arguably be able to do this based on the sheer fact of required elements they have to do.

 

[chapis]

I am tired of all the flack Tessa and Scott receive for their programs. Technically, nobody can touch them in the SD. Heck, nobody comes close to their rhumba pattern.

I don't want to bash but has anyone seen what some fans are doing with P/C's programs? Changing their music with previous year's music and then overlaying their skating? Their programs are very similar so please, I don't want to hear about V/M using "recycled" lifts.

But people was expecting that V/M invented new lifts or just to do different lifts?, because after so many years, they probably have the most variety of lifts taking into account their entire career and it is unfair to ask for new ones. It is easy to do new lifts when those are easy, I am pretty sure that Tessa and Scott can to do this lift with closed eyes https://youtu.be/rd6ntElnFmk?t=55, probably any team in the world can do it.

 

[puglover]

My hopes for the Olympic dance event:
1. Every team skates their best or at least is happy with their skate (one can hope).
2. The technical panel in particular, and the judges, mark fairly what they see on that day! Dance seems the most susceptible to bias and tampering but - please - make the sport I love stand up to scrutiny at this important, world class event.
3. I admit to not understanding all of the technical aspects of a pattern that determines the level granted but I do feel I am intelligent and informed enough that I get that a wrong edge etc. can make a difference. If a team gets a lower lever - I want other technical experts to be able to explain it - not just shrug!
I could go on - but these are my 3 top hopes for Korea.

 

[Isabelle.G]

But people was expecting that V/M invented new lifts or just to do different lifts?, because after so many years, they probably have the most variety of lifts taking into account their entire career and it is unfair to ask for new ones. It is easy to do new lifts when those are easy, I am pretty sure that Tessa and Scott can to do this lift with closed eyes https://youtu.be/rd6ntElnFmk?t=55, probably any team in the world can do it.

Well, opinions vary. Everyone is different and so is Tessa&Scott and Gabriella&Guillaume. Both couples have different views of what they want to express on the ice, what they even consider as beautiful. Just because a couple decides to do easier lifts, not too acrobatic (as G&G said themselves they don't like lifts that are too acrobatic), execute them perfectly, it doesn't mean they can't do the more difficult/acrobatic ones. And this decision shouldn't lower any team. Some people like to perform and make a great show of their numbers, some prefer to be more etheral and do what fits the program. And let's be honest - what G&G perform is not always the hardest, but it does fits in the number and makes it memorable.

Also, I do not see why Tessa&Scott would have to come up with new lifts every single year. Many skaters repeat their movements, some repeat even the whole numbers!, so I really do not understand what the fuss is about. Besides, if this is really their final season (I hope it is not that they will change their minds), it kind of make sense to perform lifts/parts of their previous numbers and to 'finish the cycle' by polishing some favourite movements they have already done. Again, they should not be lowered for that neither criticised.

 

[sap5]

The point that is really missed is that V/M's lifts *are* new. The only one that is an exact copy of a previous year is the SD lift, and I heard they had another lift in mind but couldn't use it for ACI, so that lift will probably be changed anyway. But the Carmen into Latch lift for example -- when did they do that before? The mechanics that allow the change into the Latch lift are completely different; and require Scott's strength much more than the old Carmen lift. Why is there no credit being given for that? The Prince lift? She's in a different position and the exit is different. Are people just pretending that these modifications don't exist? Only a non-skater (like certain people on TSL) would believe that these changes take no effort to learn or do. This is the kind of politikal bs that really makes me mad.

 

[pani]

The point that is really missed is that V/M's lifts *are* new. They only one that is an exact copy of a previous year is the SD lift, and I heard they had another lift in mind but couldn't use it for ACI, so that lift will probably be changed anyway. But the Carmen into Latch lift for example -- when did they do that before? The mechanics that allow the change into the Latch lift are completely different; and require Scott's strength much more than the old Carmen lift. Why is there no credit being given for that? The Prince lift? She's in a different position and the exit is different. Are people just pretending that these modifications don't exist? Only a non-skater (like certain people on TSL) would believe that these changes take no effort to learn or do. This is the kind of politikal bs that really makes me mad.

How do you know they had another lift for SD? I didn't read nothing about this.

 

[sap5]

How do you know they had another lift for SD? I didn't read nothing about this.

I can't remember where I saw that, but if I come across it again, I'll post it. You can see them thinking through the timing of that lift and the ending though, so I do think it's true.

 

[pani]

I can't remember where I saw that, but if I come across it again, I'll post it. You can see them thinking through the timing of that lift and the ending though, so I do think it's true.

Will see at Skate Canada.
I remember in reports from HPC people talked about VM have one new cool lift, I think they were talking about first lift from FD.
BTW, I like how lift from SD goes with music.

 

[kittysk8ts]

Lol I've see those videos and people claiming we could switch the musics are delusional (or have no artistic/musical sense, your choice).

(My comment has no relation regarding VM lifts, I have no complaint about them I think they fit their music and are great so why not keep them?!).

Yes, most teams keep a lift or two. I think that is acceptable. I am grateful we have new programs We expect so much of these athletes across all of the disciplines.

 

[kittysk8ts]

My hopes for the Olympic dance event:
1. Every team skates their best or at least is happy with their skate (one can hope).
2. The technical panel in particular, and the judges, mark fairly what they see on that day! Dance seems the most susceptible to bias and tampering but - please - make the sport I love stand up to scrutiny at this important, world class event.
3. I admit to not understanding all of the technical aspects of a pattern that determines the level granted but I do feel I am intelligent and informed enough that I get that a wrong edge etc. can make a difference. If a team gets a lower lever - I want other technical experts to be able to explain it - not just shrug!
I could go on - but these are my 3 top hopes for Korea.

I actually study this stuff and go through the rules with a fine tooth comb and sometimes I have no idea what went wrong with a level. It drives me bananas when I can't figure something out. I wish there was a place we could go to get an explanation. Haha. But that is never going to happen. Or an in depth post-competition wrap up of some kind, as you say, from a tech expert.

 

[chantilly]

My issue with the above post regarding difficulty of lifts is that it should then be reflected in the marks.
If the lift is easier but very well executed they get the maximum GOE and PCS points.
But if a lift is more difficult then it should garner higher technical marks.
I think the bullet points for lifts needs to be revised, otherwise lifts will stagnate.
I like well performed acrobatic lifts.
Many teams do them well IMO.
I understand the argument that acrobatic lifts were becoming a bit much, but I also think they are dynamic and exciting for the sport.
If a team executes them well they should garner both technical and GOE,PCS points.

 

[kittysk8ts]

The point that is really missed is that V/M's lifts *are* new. They only one that is an exact copy of a previous year is the SD lift, and I heard they had another lift in mind but couldn't use it for ACI, so that lift will probably be changed anyway. But the Carmen into Latch lift for example -- when did they do that before? The mechanics that allow the change into the Latch lift are completely different; and require Scott's strength much more than the old Carmen lift. Why is there no credit being given for that? The Prince lift? She's in a different position and the exit is different. Are people just pretending that these modifications don't exist? Only a non-skater (like certain people on TSL) would believe that these changes take no effort to learn or do. This is the kind of politikal bs that really makes me mad.

That SD lift is nuts. She is essentially doing an axel and landing on his shoulder. Can you imagine getting that wrong? Anyone here ever tried an axel?

And yes, the Prince lift IS different. She enters the lift from behind this time and is perched forward on her toes as opposed to the back of the blade which some will say is no big change but I think this version is even more difficult.

 

[double runner]

Re: recycled lifts

Remember Anissina and Peizerat when she would be lift him during a straight line lift? Correct me if I'm wrong, but they used that in a few programs. Just because it was used twice (with some variation), it doesn't mean it was easier the second time around. Heck, I don't remember every dance team trying it.

 

[barbarafan]

Re: recycled lifts

Remember Anissina and Peizerat when she would be lift him during a straight line lift? Correct me if I'm wrong, but they used that in a few programs. Just because it was used twice (with some variation), it doesn't mean it was easier the second time around. Heck, I don't remember every dance team trying it.

I think it is fine to repeat an eye-catching lift...My problem is with teams which do the same few lifts year after year because they got good marks for it and of course it becomes extremely reliable. There is no art in that.

 

[chantilly]

It's getting me so mad this crap about them recycling lifts
I honestly don't remember them ever recycling lifts except the Goose which they changed 3 times. And I believe only used it twice.