Tessa Virtue & Scott Moir, #46 : Until the End of Time

[Goody2shoes]

With regards to complaints about recycled lifts, I take it two ways. One are coming from disgruntled non v/m fans for argument sake and second, from those who may just started watching recent skates of v/m. Not realizing that using same but modified lifts are fairly common from all skaters. It's just more obvious (to them especially) since its use is back-to-back season competition. Same with goose lift pink Floyd and then a modified version at 2009-10 season. But then again, v/m faces more scrutiny since they're the returning champions after all.

To me, I have more problem with people complaining about them saying they always do same thing. Easily refuted if anyone care to actually watch their FDs from every season they've been on. AND the second big problem I have is the accusations of they never were true innovators in ice dance. When they clearly have done so after winning OG. But wasn't given the recognition they deserved. Carmen? Warhorse but not. That, still not innovative enough? Really?

If anything, I felt they were pressured to pull back on whatever it is they are doing after Carmen. Thus, them giving us Seasons program. Even then, as the non fans accuse them of doing yet another lyrical dance, it was still unlike any skating material they've done before.

So I've come to realize that when it comes to v/m, nothing will please the non fans. They'll nitpick everything related to v/m be it their programs or them as skaters (i.e. Personal life, appearance, etc) to death. So it's just a lot better to ignore those complaints and just enjoy. Be in a bubble like Tessa.

 

[Goody2shoes]

I think it is fine to repeat an eye-catching lift...My problem is with teams which do the same few lifts year after year because they got good marks for it and of course it becomes extremely reliable. There is no art in that.

as of right now, the rules doesn't differentiate much in terms of difficulty. Yet. And I think it's also how do we measure difficulty level between the lifts (that each skaters bring to ice dance) that's the issue. If there's some sort of guideline, like lift with two feet on versus with one foot off denotes different points, then it's something. For now, as long as the lift (easy or not) meet their checklist, they are equal in judges' eyes. Correct me if I'm wrong?

 

[Isabelle.G]

With regards to complaints about recycled lifts, I take it two ways. One are coming from disgruntled non v/m fans for argument sake and second, from those who may just started watching recent skates of v/m. Not realizing that using same but modified lifts are fairly common from all skaters. It's just more obvious (to them especially) since its use is back-to-back season competition. Same with goose lift pink Floyd and then a modified version at 2009-10 season. But then again, v/m faces more scrutiny since they're the returning champions after all.

To me, I have more problem with people complaining about them saying they always do same thing. Easily refuted if anyone care to actually watch their FDs from every season they've been on. AND the second big problem I have is the accusations of they never were true innovators in ice dance. When they clearly have done so after winning OG. But wasn't given the recognition they deserved. Carmen? Warhorse but not. That, still not innovative enough? Really?

If anything, I felt they were pressured to pull back on whatever it is they are doing after Carmen. Thus, them giving us Seasons program. Even then, as the non fans accuse them of doing yet another lyrical dance, it was still unlike any skating material they've done before.

So I've come to realize that when it comes to v/m, nothing will please the non fans. They'll nitpick everything related to v/m be it their programs or them as skaters (i.e. Personal life, appearance, etc) to death. So it's just a lot better to ignore those complaints and just enjoy. Be in a bubble like Tessa.

Yep. If one wants to critize, he will always find a way to do that and a reason why that is 'necessary'. That goes for all the teams and their non fans, I guess.
Staying in the bubble helps the skaters and their fans well.

 

[Zazy]

If anything, I felt they were pressured to pull back on whatever it is they are doing after Carmen. Thus, them giving us Seasons program. Even then, as the non fans accuse them of doing yet another lyrical dance, it was still unlike any skating material they've done before.

They absolutely were. There was an article after 2013 worlds saying that the judges didn't like Carmen and wanted them to do something more like Mahler for 2014. I was so annoyed because Carmen was about a million times better than Mahler, and also, why are judges giving their program preferences? And of course when all the signs point towards your political status being on the decline, you can't afford not to listen. The whole thing is gross.

On another note, I really miss Jennifer Swan. I'm not sure why they suddenly stopped working with her but it would be so great if they would reunite on a program, even a show program.

 

[Shayii]

On another note, I really miss Jennifer Swan. I'm not sure why they suddenly stopped working with her but it would be so great if they would reunite on a program, even a show program.

I mentioned this a couple of pages back, but I've been wondering what happened to Jennifer Swan too. I can't help wondering what her vision for MR would look like. At the very least it would interesting if Pink Floyd and Carmen are anything to go by.

 

[bbkenn]

Carmen was way better than Mahler, but people began to trash that program as soon as they saw how amazing it was. First, it was too dark, too full of "sex", trashy, etc, etc. After the initial assessment of brilliance, the judges never caught on so they made the mistake of pulling back and it hurt them, I think. They should have forced the judges to acknowledge their brilliance and just practiced the hell out of it, not made ANY changes and just learn it so well they could do it in their sleep. Still, I think of it now, as one of their signature pieces and unlike any other that has been performed since 2013.

MR has even more of that potential as they are skating better than ever with so much more confidence. I just love it the more I watch it. The same for the SD. I think it is a SD that has an impact and is impossible to ignore or forget. I am so thrilled for them.

 

[Isabelle.G]

Carmen was way better than Mahler, but people began to trash that program as soon as they saw how amazing it was. First, it was too dark, too full of "sex", trashy, etc, etc. After the initial assessment of brilliance, the judges never caught on so they made the mistake of pulling back and it hurt them, I think. They should have forced the judges to acknowledge their brilliance and just practiced the hell out of it, not made ANY changes and just learn it so well they could do it in their sleep. Still, I think of it now, as one of their signature pieces and unlike any other that has been performed since 2013.

MR has even more of that potential as they are skating better than ever with so much more confidence. I just love it the more I watch it. The same for the SD. I think it is a SD that has an impact and is impossible to ignore or forget. I am so thrilled for them.

You are right. Carmen was perfect, one of my all-time favourite numbers in the whole area of figure skating. The first part of MR is great, I am just not 100% caught on the second one, 'Come What May'. But I am sure they will work on that, cannot wait to see them perform it again and see the improvement.

 

[Golden1]

How awesome is Scott? Working at the shop during his days off https://www.instagram.com/p/BZ81vvjFpRN/?taken-by=thumper_287

You are right. Carmen was perfect, one of my all-time favourite numbers in the whole area of figure skating.

Same here. It's such a timeless piece that I still love watching it. Hopefully their new and probably last programs will become as great or even better (if that is even possible ).

 

[martyross]

how cool! i wish i were one of his customers!

 

[Goody2shoes]

I rewatched their first FD practice with Scott & Tessa in the blue dress today. It made me feel like when I first watched Carmen. It was totally unexpected, first in terms of their chosen outfits and then their interpretation of Carmen choreography. They stamped that program as modern Carmen. And it worked.

Honestly I don't know if she'd consider to go that practice dress style for MR, due to her dress style for SD. (Too similar perhaps?) But I have to say for some weird reason the modern outfits they both wore worked better for program. Just a thought ...

 

[dramagrrl]

Carmen was way better than Mahler, but people began to trash that program as soon as they saw how amazing it was.

Completely disagree. I think Mahler was likely their best all-around FD and quite frankly never understood all the fuss about Carmen. It was great in terms of skating skills and interesting choreo, but to me, it never seemed to fit them as well and as naturally as Mahler. It was also really not my thing stylistically, but that’s a completely subjective thing.

 

[arakwafan2006]

Completely disagree. I think Mahler was likely their best all-around FD and quite frankly never understood all the fuss about Carmen. It was great in terms of skating skills and interesting choreo, but to me, it never seemed to fit them as well and as naturally as Mahler. It was also really not my thing stylistically, but that’s a completely subjective thing.

Mahler was best in class. The Carmen was a step in a direction most didn't see coming from them. It was cool but given how untrained it was I think that people remember it's possibilities vs what was. Also, some of the lifts from that program are returning. I do agree that the Mahler was just everything. THat was Olympic skating at the right moment. It was Zueva at her finest as well.

 

[Zazy]

Mahler did nothing to showcase their musicality, partnering and dancing abilities; it was essentially a pairs program without the jumps. P/C are having a lot of success with that kind of FD right now but I don't much care for it. If I want to watch pairs skating, I'll watch pairs.

Carmen was never skated even remotely to its potential but the original choreography was everything I've ever wanted in an ice dance program. Every movement, every stroke had a purpose, every element fit the music, the theme, the style of movement perfectly. Maybe it was too difficult to perform while also meeting all the requirements of the COP system but that just shows the problem with COP. It encourages interchangeable elements, interchangeable programs and pairs-lite skating. We're never going to see anything like Carmen again.

 

[Lanie]

Mahler did nothing to showcase their musicality, partnering and dancing abilities; it was essentially a pairs program without the jumps. P/C are having a lot of success with that kind of FD right now but I don't much care for it. If I want to watch pairs skating, I'll watch pairs.

Carmen was never skated even remotely to its potential but the original choreography was everything I've ever wanted in an ice dance program. Every movement, every stroke had a purpose, every element fit the music, the theme, the style of movement perfectly. Maybe it was too difficult to perform while also meeting all the requirements of the COP system but that just shows the problem with COP. It encourages interchangeable elements, interchangeable programs and pairs-lite skating. We're never going to see anything like Carmen again.

This. Carmen was glorious. My favorite. Just such an amazing work.

 

[dramagrrl]

Mahler did nothing to showcase their musicality, partnering and dancing abilities; it was essentially a pairs program without the jumps.

Again, I disagree with two out of three of the above, but hey, to each their own. *shrug*

 

[Shayii]

I love Mahler, but Carmen there aren't enough superlatives for that program. Such a difficult program, the lifts alone were insane. Just from the practice clips from it's debut gave me chills. I too preferred the original choreography we saw of it. I have some many favorite moments from Carmen, but I think my absolute favorite was the transition when they both go "insane." Incredible.

 

[chantilly]

Honestly though, isn't it awesome that we can battle back and forth on what was their most brilliant programme and that that battle has been continued

 

[pani]

I rewatched their first FD practice with Scott & Tessa in the blue dress today. It made me feel like when I first watched Carmen. It was totally unexpected, first in terms of their chosen outfits and then their interpretation of Carmen choreography. They stamped that program as modern Carmen. And it worked.

Honestly I don't know if she'd consider to go that practice dress style for MR, due to her dress style for SD. (Too similar perhaps?) But I have to say for some weird reason the modern outfits they both wore worked better for program. Just a thought ...

This. In that outfit this FD looked totally different, compare there outfit for competition. You could see there lines better, especially her arms in long sleeves.

 

[irena]

Mahler and Carmen are like the sun and the moon, like the water and the fire. Two absolute opposites and it is incredible that the same people performed both of them superbly. This can only compliment the skaters, dancers and actors they are. For me I can never decide which one I like more, but Carmen is like a storm, a hurricane which blows you away and yes, every move hits the music perfectly which is very rare. Hats down to Jenifer Swan for that, I would like them to work again with her.

 

[Andora]

Those who mention Carmen's potential vs how it was skated have a point. I loved that FD, and it's a testament to these two skaters that it was so likes considering they never skates it all that well. It really set them up poorly for the Olympics, too, having such inconsistent performances, which they carried forward.

As much as I loved Carmen, it was SO slow. You just can't have that when your competitors are known for speed. If it was the choreography, then it should have been addressed, but who knows?

Thankfully that isn't a problem with their comeback programs.

 

[pani]

Where Carmen was slow? I saw them at CoR and at GPF and no way they were slow.

 

[Andora]

Pani, come on... Carmen was slow and often hesitant.

 

[pani]

Pani, come on... Carmen was slow and often hesitant.

So now i need a break from FSU, sorry.

 

[bbkenn]

It's easy to skate fast if you have simple choreography.

 

[Goody2shoes]

loved that FD, and it's a testament to these two skaters that it was so likes considering they never skates it all that well. It really set them up poorly for the Olympics, too, having such inconsistent performances, which they carried forward.
.

How is it any different than other ice dancers, such D/W who danced to Phantom of the Opera one season, then Notre Dame in another and oh, Scheherazade for Olympic year? Or Shibs with their Michael Jackson or Cold Play? W/P with MR, Je suis malade? To name just a few....Did they, in their inconsistency of their choices of FD programs each season, made them somehow unfavorable? V/M came back after OG with Funny Face, Hip hip chin chin, (yes, the split of favorable or unfavorable) Carmen. Yet this made them lose their standing to win a OG medal at 2nd Olympics???

It's ice dance COMPETITION is it not? How else is it judged? Based on choreography alone? So is Skating Skills taken as just a second thought??? Makes no sense back then to make changes to rules (like artistic values and technical values) now then is there. If the logic of "how the judges feel" to is the best choreography presented by skaters (skating skills be damned) should ultimately be the winner, then why do we have a competition anyways???

 

[martyross]

Pani, come on... Carmen was slow and often hesitant.

often hesitant. where exactly, Andora?

 

[VGThuy]

How is it any different than other ice dancers, such D/W who danced to Phantom of the Opera one season, then Notre Dame in another and oh, Scheherazade for Olympic year? Or Shibs with their Michael Jackson or Cold Play? W/P with MR, Je suis malade? To name just a few....Did they, in their inconsistency of their choices of FD programs each season, made them somehow unfavorable? V/M came back after OG with Funny Face, Hip hip chin chin, (yes, the split of favorable or unfavorable) Carmen. Yet this made them lose their standing to win a OG medal at 2nd Olympics???

The Shibs did not have an easy ride back to the medal podium. It took four seasons of being third in the Canton hierarchy, programs that did not resonate with the judges, and lots of standing ovations that Coldplay year just to get them back into the conversation.

 

[dramagrrl]

How is it any different than other ice dancers, such D/W who danced to Phantom of the Opera one season, then Notre Dame in another and oh, Scheherazade for Olympic year? Or Shibs with their Michael Jackson or Cold Play? W/P with MR, Je suis malade? To name just a few....Did they, in their inconsistency of their choices of FD programs each season, made them somehow unfavorable? V/M came back after OG with Funny Face, Hip hip chin chin, (yes, the split of favorable or unfavorable) Carmen. Yet this made them lose their standing to win a OG medal at 2nd Olympics???

It's ice dance COMPETITION is it not? How else is it judged? Based on choreography alone? So is Skating Skills taken as just a second thought??? Makes no sense back then to make changes to rules (like artistic values and technical values) now then is there. If the logic of "how the judges feel" to is the best choreography presented by skaters (skating skills be damned) should ultimately be the winner, then why do we have a competition anyways???

Uhhh... I think you completely misread @Andora's post. She didn't say anything about inconsistency of music choices. She was talking about inconsistent performances of the Carmen FD, meaning inconsistency in how they actually skated the program each time that season.

 

[Goody2shoes]

But how does the inconsistency in, say, Carmen "set them up" into their Olympic year? So in essence it's also Seasons that suck big time too in the eyes of judges? Hence, the choreography reference in previous post. It's "Win in choreography FIRST with judges and then hey, look at skating skills (tech component)" would be the determinant for future winners yes?

You know what? Better yet let's just tell ice dancers in the future to dance the SAME style in FD to determine best winner as not to cause any headaches of which programs is palatable or look risky etc...

Makes me wish compulsaries were back in the system ...

 

[Shayii]

Where Carmen was slow? I saw them at CoR and at GPF and no way they were slow.

Yeah Carmen wasn't slow. The only time they lost a tad bit of speed was at Worlds. They didn't want a repeat of what happened at 4CCs and they were competing at home so the nerves must have been crazy.

@Goody2shoes I think she's saying the inconsistency in 2013 led to the judges subconsciously or consciously judging Tessa and Scott more harshly in 2014 season regardless of how they skated.