I seriously doubt that. Being too thin can cause bones to become thin and brittle. Didn't Satoko Miyahara have to take time off because of concern about her bones being brittle? She was advised to gain weight and she did. And we aren't talking about skaters being overweight. Tonya Harding wasn't overweight. The issue is expecting skaters of normal or even already slender builds to lose weight. Should Tonya have lost weight when she was already a good jumper? As far as I can recall, her career problems were never because of injury.
"Why Don’t You Lose 5 Pounds?" - Nancy Kerrigan documentary
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I seriously doubt that. Being too thin can cause bones to become thin and brittle. Didn't Satoko Miyahara have to take time off because of concern about her bones being brittle? She was advised to gain weight and she did. And we aren't talking about skaters being overweight. Tonya Harding wasn't overweight. The issue is expecting skaters of normal or even already slender builds to lose weight. Should Tonya have lost weight when she was already a good jumper? As far as I can recall, her career problems were never because of injury.
Tonya injured her ankle at 92 nationals and rather than ask for a bye decided to compete anyway. She ended up 3rd but still made the team. Tonya also had a swollen ankle at 94 Olympics. She gave up on the quad loop because of the toll it was taking on her ankles. Both Tonya and Surya had trouble with their boots holding up. I guess the ladie's boots were designed to handle their power.
MacMadame
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Both spirals meet the requirements. The only problem I have with Tonya's is her arm positions. However, you can't take a still picture of a moving element and make any kind of objective judgment on the whole element. Any frozen moment in a spiral, spin or jump can be made to look bad if you capture the exact right moment with the exact right camera angle.
To keep the audience from being bored.
Also, holding different positions and changing positions are features that can make the spiral more difficult. There isn't actually a requirement that any of the positions be "beautiful" whatever that means.vesperholly
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I never said that. Most ladies' spirals in the late 80s and early 90s weren't that spectacular in terms of flexibility. Tonya's is middle of the road.
hanca
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If you look at the athletes, having hip and knee injuries is becoming pretty comon. On the spot I could name at leat ten skaters who had knees and hips surgeries, and if I sat down and thought about it properly, it will be much more. How many skaters can you name who had thin and brittle bones related problems caused by the, being too thin? I think you are underestimating the impact of the jump landings on the skaters body.
Whether Tonya should have lost weight or not, that’s up to her. Her body, her health... skaters can land jumps with all different bodies. Kerstin Frank also didn’t have the typical figure skating figure and yet she was landing her jumps. None of us has the right to tell anyone to lose weight. Only time will show whether she will be able to walk when she is 60.
No doubt the stress of skating causes many injuries. But thin skaters get them, too. It isn't clear to me at all that someone of more average weight (as opposed to very thin) is more prone to injuries or that the purpose of telling skaters to lose weight, if that happens, is to prevent injuries. Tonya, by the way, has been skating again at age 47. She has worked up to doubles and says she is going to try for triples.
hanca
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You are missing the point. It is not the stress of skating, it is the impact of landing. The impact varies according to the skater’s weight. And if you multiply the skater’s s weight four to six times (four times for easy, soft kanding, six times for hard landing that was not absorbed well with the knee bend), the differences are huge. E.g. a skater weighing fifty kilos absorbs of 200-300kg whereas 70 kilo’s skater will absorb 280-420 kilo. Everytime they jump. That’s a huge difference, and the impact is absorbed by knees, hips and the whole body (backbone). And elite skaters need to do many jumps every day.
This article even says it is eight times body weight!
https://gizmodo.com/sensors-show-figure-skaters-absorb-8x-their-own-body-we-1526842854
For comparison, runners absorb 2-3 times their body weight.
vesperholly
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You say yourself that impact varies with easy landings. So good technique can help alleviate the impact of landings.
Tara Lipinski had hip issues before she was 18 and she was tiny. But she had that spinny, roller skating technique.
Tinami Amori
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Re Tonya's spirals, there are videos of her in a spiral, and they are not attractive or well done, but i chose a foto instead.
The next comment is not an argument, but rather a question: So, are you saying that Spirals by Sasha and Mao are not worth more points or ranked higher...
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3c/b1/31/3cb1319eb926bf37ce322e7989cf8d8d.jpg
http://image.space.rakuten.co.jp/lg01/92/0000189892/47/imgc209b96fzikbzj.jpeg
... then for example those by Suguri and Slutskaya?
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2425/4060727186_2ef59bf531.jpg
https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/...ree-program-at-the-olympic-picture-id51520879
Overall, certain body types are better for a particular sport or occupation. It's a fact. In addition to athletic requirements, Figure Skating is a unique sport where "form and lines" are also evaluated.
Try switching Savchenko....
http://www.hawtcelebs.com/wp-conten...olkowy-at-2014-winter-olympics-in-sochi_1.jpg
https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/aliona-savchenko-robin-szolkowy-short-program-7132795.jpg
.... with hammer throwers...
https://media.aws.iaaf.org/media/LargeL/3004f890-ff6e-4879-a2c5-f6e06119314a.jpg?v=1292510768
https://cdn-s3.si.com/images/2017_IAAF_World_Championships_00111.JPG
..... and if all these girls think their body is beautiful, then MORE POWER TO ALL OF THEM....
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hanca
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Yes, the impact is definitely easier with better landings. The trouble is that even elite skaters don’t always land well. When learning a new jump, or when having off day, the landings can be pretty hard, especially if they don’t bend the knee at the right moment to absorb that better. When they fight for the landing, they are concentrating more on not falling rather than on absorbing the jump softly. But even with landing all jumps always well (which is unrealistic) you still have a huge difference with how much weight will be absorbed in that knee. Every kilo matters. There is no point arguing that someone was injured anyway and she was tiny; someone may have predisposition for knees injuries, or trained stupidly, jumping hour after hour instead of training smart, there are many factors that go into it. (It’s like arguing that your uncle drunk a bottle of whiskey per day and yet he didn’t destroy his liver, so drinking too much alcohol doesn’t damage liver). The bottom line is, the weight matters.
vesperholly
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Yes, but again as you say, it is only one of the factors.
Rather than coaches telling skaters to lose weight above all else, they should be focusing on factors that aren't as damaging. Training better, off-ice training, proper technique, etc.
I'm so glad that they eliminated the spiral as a required step sequence for women as well as the layback. This allows athletes to pick elements that best showcase their bodies and abilities. As for Tonya and Nancy, one looked prettier and the other one skated with much more power and speed. It's a toss up as to what impresses judges more. Irina Slutuskaya did not hit the best positions in her spirals but she was able to get a lot of points for them under COP.
gkelly
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Again, you can't look at still pictures alone to determine how a spiral sequence should be scored, and the positions are one important part of what goes into the scoring but only one of many considerations.
For example:
At 2005 Worlds, with the level definitions, base values and GOE values, and judges' scoring tendencies at the time, Cohen scored almost a point higher on her Free Skate spiral sequence than Slutskaya.
In the short program, however, Cohen bobbled on the change of edge and lost her catch-foot position afterward, so she scored lower GOEs than Slutskaya there (she did still retain the level 3, which was the highest level available at the time).
In the qualifying rounds, where they skated in opposite qualifying groups with different panels, Slutskaya earned 0.2 more for that element in total because her sequence was called as level 3 and Cohen's as level 2. I haven't seen those performances and I'd have to research the 2005 rules anyway to guess why Cohen got a lower level there.
It would have been interesting to see how their spirals would have scored relative to each other ca. 2002 if there had been IJS in effect at that time, when Cohen's positions were just as pretty but her edges were less deep and secure than later in her career.
Tinami Amori
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There is a video of Cohen's s-s @ 2010 US Nationals, if i remember she received the highest points (of all girls) even though she did not medal, and! the commentary on this move highly praises and singles out her stretch, form and flexibility (and i did not hear the same for other girls' spirals).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdP_djfEaGY
Jot the Dot Dot
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Well, Tonya had great lines too! See for yourself! http://oi68.tinypic.com/wr01nm.jpg
Okay, to return to the serious, there are legitimate reasons for a skater to maintain a healthy weight, it just seems too commonplace that this translates into 'Skinny', and for Nancy to succumb to pressure and develop an eating disorder seems too much a head-spinner for me.
I'm not missing the point. I know exactly what you meant. What I don't agree with is that coaches should or do tell skaters to lose weight to avoid injuries. Injuries are a fact of life for skaters no matter what they weigh. Weight alone just doesn't translate into more injuries. Otherwise men would be more prone to injuries because they weigh more. Many factors play a role into how jumping affects a particular skater and being thin is hardly a proven preventative measure.
Tinami Amori
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She was a true artist, a flying Malevich... http://s.quickmeme.com/img/4d/4de99d4d7a1fc43915aeeb1e28f3a2e5c7b4384fe49ee1e32722fc28d20ffd62.jpg
On a serious note, i agree completely. If loosing few kilos does not damage health, helps athletic abilities and form and does not turn into anorexia, then there is not a reason not to do it. But not when and if it affects health negatively, (imo) i still think of sport to some degree as "a hobby" and not a life necessity and it should not take priority over health, and the issue goes further than just "weight".
The message should be "if you have to chose between health and athletic accomplishment, chose health". What i am often hearing, grossly detest and will always object to, is an attempt to diss and take away "the advantage" from those who legitimately have such (by nature or by hard work) in favor of those who do not.
I understand, for example, that with a proper technique a heavier built and/or older skater can still effectively execute same jumps as slender-built/younger skater, and the emphasis should be on "technique" for that skater before advising any weight loss.
But it is not always possible in case of a skater who is "heavier-built", and what i often hear instead is an INDIRECT suggestion "let's somehow hinder the slender/younger skater, so that heavier-built/older one can also win". I am against any form of "hindering the one with legal/legitimate advantages".
There was a case in San Francisco Ballet Academy, in the 1990's, where a mother of a very short-in-height and heavy-built daughter (with a body not nearly required for a ballet dancer) was trying to sue the Academy over "discrimination'. It was ugly and unfair on mother's side.
hanca
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I agree with you that coaches SHOULD NOT tell anyone to lose weight. That’s not their job, they have no specialisation on weight problems and in my view it is crossing the boundaries. The same way I won’t be advising anyone on law matters if I am not a qualified lawyer. But at the same time, considering what we now know about the the joints absorbing 4-6 times the body weight, the athlete should be responsible to keep the weight in the lower range of healthy weight. Not all will do, naturally, the same way as not all athletes eat healthily and not all athletes avoid smoking. But I don’t think there is point pretending that more pounding on knees and hips doesn’t cause injuries. Someone may get away with it and be lucky, but doesn’t change the fact that it is a risk factor.
mag
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Not only is it not a preventative measure, it is not particularly useful given that weight varies with height, muscle mass, and bone density - all three of which have much more direct impact on injuries. I also challenge anyone to find an old school coach who did regular weigh ins with his or her skaters as a method of injury prevention. That is just
Off ice training has come a long way since the days of Nancy and Tonya. Landing triple triple combinations, quad throws and twists, getting level 4 spins, and making it through a LP without the footwork break of days past, requires a strong flexible body, amazing core strength (which can make skaters look a bit thicker around the middle) and finely tuned cardio. The old “just lose 5 lbs” really does not work long term. Ask Tanith Belbin about that.
I never get this weight talking point. If they make it more dramatic like 10 pounds in three days I will probably feel more sympathetic. 5 lbs is nothing. I can lose 5 lbs in a week without suffering at all. Most actors have to lose or gain weight drastically for a part. We are talking 20, 30, sometimes 50 pounds. Is it absolutely healthy? No. Neither is jumping up, rotating three times in the air and landing on a sheet of ice. Losing 5lbs wouldn't lead to an eating disorder if you are not already emotionally fragile. Sometimes it really isn't about losing weight, which isn't very hard, but that they don't want to hear from other people they should lose weight. Thus the invention of "nutritionists", who do the same thing but are nice about it. Every season progresses we see skaters getting thinner and thinner and jumping better and better. Sotnikova famously went on a diet, lost a lot of pounds and won an OGM. It would be self-deceiving to think weight doesn't matter. Of course you can't compare Nancy Kerrigan to Satoko Miyahara. It's all relative to one's personal physique.
Japanfan
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But being overly concerned or obsessed about losing 5 lbs (or any amount of weight) can certainly be part of an eating disorder.
The ideal of thinness has been around for quite awhile in FS.
The problem is weight matters to meet an ideal of how someone should look, as opposed to mattering to overall health. That's where eating disorders come from.
mag
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You can lose 5 lbs of mostly water weight in a week. You cannot do that if you are training at an elite level. It just does not work, nor is it the least bit helpful for improving performance.
ETA: I guess an elite athlete could do that, it just would not help and could be quite dangerous. Athletes need to be properly hydrated in order for their muscles to perform at the required level.
misskarne
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This thread is so gross, OMG.
hanca
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Why? Because political correctness says no one should ever talk about weight? We are not shaming athletes into losing weight. We are discussing whether it is helpful or not to be lighter if doing figure skating (and the reasons for it), which is quite similar to discussing whether it would be helpful for basketball players to be taller.
The reasons for figure skaters to be slimmer:
- aesthetic reasons - I disagree with that. I don’t think that would be good enough reason
- health reasons - I think that should be consideration. The impact on joints and increased risk of injury
- because it is easier to rotate in the air, therefore the jumping is easier - that’s true, but again it is up to the particular skater whether it is good enough reason for them or not. One can jump with any figure, but if it is harder, will it negatively impact on the results? (E.g. underrotations)
I do believe that being slimmer helps a lot, even though it is not completely essential. At the same time, I don’t think anyone (including the coach) has the right to tell the skater to lose weight. It is up to the skaters themselves to decide.
misskarne
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No, you are defending gross comments calling perfectly healthy young women, elite athletes fat.
dramagrrl
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I said this before when the Gracie Gold thread devolved into being all about weight "concerns" and what the "proper body type" for a figure skater was, and I'll say it again here - almost always, the posters who continuously post in this type of thread and insist that thinness is almost always better for a skater, that a certain body type is "required" to succeed, that certain weights/body types make skating more "aesthetically pleasing", that coaches should be able to tell their athletes to lose weight because it is part of their job to "make the skater the best they can be", etc., are people who are either involved heavily in the skating world right now or have been skaters or heavily involved in the skating world in the past. These posters have been ingrained with the ideas that people here are trying to break away from (about weight loss = success, coaches should monitor weight, thinner = prettier/more aesthetically pleasing, judges will like you better and score you higher if you're thinner, etc. etc.) and even if they think they have moved far enough from skating to think about these things objectively, they probably never will. Most people (especially females) that I know who have been involved in the sport at a high level have continued to have difficulty with weight and thoughts around eating even ten or twenty years after they left the sport. They continue to struggle with the whole idea of appearing perfectly thin and groomed even when off the ice, even when they no longer have an "on ice" life. It is very hard to break away from truly believing that these ingrained ideas are facts and not just ideas that have been drilled into one's mind by the environment you've been in for many years.
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jenniferlyon
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Princess style...
1. Ultra-feminine. The princess doesn't just wear a dress, she wears a long* dress with sparkles and fluff. The dress is generally white or pastel-colored. It might be royal blue or magenta or some other bright color (especially if the princess isn't blond) but a black or red dress is usually a no-no because princesses are...
2. Innocent and virginal, never too sexy or sophisticated.
3. Well-coiffed. A typical princess has long hair in a bun or updo. If her hair is loose, it's still neatly styled. She never looks like she just rolled out of bed. If the princess has shorter hair, it must be poofy/curly, a la Jill Trenary circa 1988. Blond is the preferred hair color for Caucasian princesses, but it has to look natural even if it isn't.
4. Shoes with high heels, but not too high. (Obviously not a concern for skaters unless they're off ythe ice.)
5. The right amount of makeup, especially if the princess is to be photographed (and we know she will be).
6. Thin, but not sickly-looking. The princess might faint, eat a poisoned apple, or fall asleep for a hundred years (or whenever her prince finally shows up), but she looks like she's only taking a little nap, not like someone needs to call an ambulance or hook her up to an IV.
7. She smiles, she giggles, but if she ever laughs, it's a quiet, ladylike kind of laugh.
8. The modern princess is a little smarter and feistier than her classic counterpart, but eventually she will need to be rescued.
9. Her prince is someone who fits the role. He rides a white horse or drives a classy automobile that he would never in a million years know how to fix himself. And absolutely no motorcycles allowed!
*This is for princesses in general. Obviously, an ice princess cannot skate in a floor-length ballgown.
bardtoob
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Do we know whether or not Gracie had an eating disorder before the 2016 Worlds LP?
Sylvia
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No. She has never spoken on the record about the timing of her eating disorder, AFAIK.
ETA link about Kerrigan's documentary:
https://www.whydontyoulose5pounds.com/aboutthefilm/
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MacMadame
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Not if her name is Merida.
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