ISU to evaluate feasibility of 2020-21 skating season

[Miezekatze]

Fortunately, the "real world" I'm living in at the moment seems more sensible, and seems to be taking a more sensible balance of freedom and responsibility. Let's at least see how the next 60 days go. I don't see any reason to cancel the GP, much less Worlds, before September at this moment in time.

I don't think you can take decisions so short term. In 60 days it would be mid September already. You need to make contracts and start preparations and start spending money much earlier.

I've had an event in January 2021 already cancelled now. That's early, but th carnival associations are now taking decisions for the events in November.
A friend of mine is in the town council for a nearby city and she said they have to make the decision on whether to cancel the christmas markets very soon now, because there are so many contracts involved.

I except the decision for Nebelhorn Trophy in mid-July and therefor the decisions for the first GP events in August probably.

Of course one doesn't have to decide on Worlds nwo yet. But I doubt they'll take a decision on the first GP eevnt only in September. Didn't the ISU put 10 - 12 weeks before the event as a rule anyway?

 

[MacMadame]

I don't think you can take decisions so short term. In 60 days it would be mid September already. You need to make contracts and start preparations and start spending money much earlier.

I think @Louis was talking about people buying tickets. As in, we can decide later.

But you are right that for event organizers, it's not that simple. Once you start spending money, canceling means losing money if you give refunds.

They'll head butt you out of Trader Joe's if you wear the carbon filter mask which allows you to breathe.

Are you are talking about those masks with the little vent for breathing --- the ones that completely defeat the purpose of wearing a mask since air/droplets escape them?

 

[Deleted member 221]

I think @Louis was talking about people buying tickets. As in, we can decide later.

But you are right that for event organizers, it's not that simple. Once you start spending money, canceling means losing money if you give refunds.

I was talking about holding the event at all. Some people seem very eager for everything to be cancelled right now - why, I have no idea because it does not affect them, not even indirectly, but it affects plenty of skaters who seem to want to compete.

If the ISU needs to make a decision 10-12 weeks out, they should make a decision based on the situation then - not on the gloom and doom forecasts from armchair epidemiologists. Things across Europe are opening up, cautiously, but we should all believe it's inevitable and guaranteed that we'll all need to be cowering in the corner again by October with covid everywhere.

Why not try to make it work, at least until the gloom and doom materializes? The old rules no longer apply. Negotiate every expense - 30% off should be a minimum discount, and 50% is realistic for many things. Everyone in event production businesses is out of work. Last-minute contracts, or contracts with a cancellation clause, are better than no contracts, which is the current situation. If the rinks won't renegotiate, hold a GP at a local rink behind closed doors. Seriously, if the US border is open, why not have Skate America in Sun Valley or another outdoor rink? There are creative options beyond just cancellation.

 

[MacMadame]

If the ISU needs to make a decision 10-12 weeks out, they should make a decision based on the situation then - not on the gloom and doom forecasts from armchair epidemiologists.

I could be wrong about this but I'm pretty sure the ISU isn't making decisions based on random posts on FSU.

 

[Miezekatze]

I don't know if it's so easy to get people to make or sign contracts with a cancellation clause in this situation.

I guess it depends on a whole number of factors, financial situation of the organizing party, whether it's a private company or something like a public city where the event might be state or tax funded or whether it's just a small club, whehter you need to rent the place where the event is going to be held, decisions of public authorities..

I'd guess for organizers where the risk is higher than the possible benefit, they're going to cancel early.

On the other hand someone who has a private company that lives from holding events and it's his primary source of income and there's no other ways of income it's more likely he's going to take the risk of planning something.

But I'd say while there's all sort of smaller events happening in Germany again, still I'd say about 90% of bigger events are cancelled way into October/November now. But there ARE also some events that are supposed to happen, so I'm not saying that it's impossible to hold events, but I doubt all the cancellations are because of people being too "cautious", I'd guess they all have very clear financial reasons for not trying.

Generally I don't really see how the ISU of all organizations can make a decision, because they can't decide most of those things.

If the city of Oberstdorf or the state of Bavaria doesn't allow an event like Nebelhorn Trophy to be held for example, the ISU can't do anything about it at all. I'd guess it's the same for every single GP event?

 

[MacMadame]

If the city of Oberstdorf or the state of Bavaria doesn't allow an event like Nebelhorn Trophy to be held for example, the ISU can't do anything about it at all. I'd guess it's the same for every single GP event?

It's the same for all events. We have a Race Director here who had to cancel all his events for 2020 because every county they would be held in told him they would not give him a permit for anything during 2020. I didn't need a permit for my event but the venue canceled on me. So even if I had wanted to, I couldn't have held it. I couldn't hold it though because Stage 3 in our state limits events to under some small amount (100?) where I couldn't even break even. Bigger events won't be allowed until our Stage 4, which won't happen until there is a vaccine. So that's that. No event this year and maybe not even next year.

I find it hard to believe, no matter how opened up other countries get, that they'd allow indoor events with 10,000-20,000 people. Which I think is what GP and ISU Championship events will typically have. I can see these events going forward but not with spectators. Sponsors would have to step up to make sure they can pay for themselves.

I'm sorry if some people think that makes me a negative nelly, but I think it's just being practical.

 

[missing]

I could be wrong about this but I'm pretty sure the ISU isn't making decisions based on random posts on FSU.

Well, drat.

 

[Dobre]

Okay, I'm going to say something that may be unpopular but I think people have unrealistic expectations here. Until there is a vaccine (and maybe forever), there will always be outbreaks. Outbreaks are not a sign a locale isn't doing well.

No, but in Australia they are a sign that international travel--even within a small bubble--will not be opened, which is relevant to the current discussion. (Personal note: The article I read today about the two housing towers being locked down in Australia kind of blows my mind. They are so large that they house 3,000 people. Yikes! That is more than twice the population of some counties--in only two buildings.

Some people seem very eager for everything to be cancelled right now - why, I have no idea because it does not affect them, not even indirectly, but it affects plenty of skaters who seem to want to compete.

I don't think posters sound eager for things to be cancelled. (We're skating fans. We would love for our favorite skaters to be able to compete safely if there is potential for that to happen). But this thread is about evaluating the feasibility of the season. And we are speculating about the likelihood of certain events being held vs. canceled because speculating is what we do. Plus, we even get some real information from people who know about current restrictions in different parts of the world and people who understand the ins and outs of event organization.


I will say that some days I wish my main employers would just decide to officially take my job off the table until this pandemic is over or the health risks are minimized due to improved treatments or a vaccine. The stress involved in trying to analyze the risks vs. any possible benefits of returning to my main job can be so heinous. (I think, given the nature of my normal #1 job, that I would almost undoubtedly contract the virus if I go back to work. And also given the nature of my job, I think there would be a high risk of my infecting others whenever that happened. Possibly that risk could be minimized somewhat if my employers make certain changes, but there hasn't been any discussion about doing so thus far--which I suspect is because people really don't know if they can run things without my job existing in its current form). I keep thinking it's extremely unlikely my job is going to return in its traditional form during the course of this pandemic, but there are definitely days when I wish someone would just make that decision so that a. I could stop worrying about making it and b. no one will write me off as unreliable if I decide not to accept jobs for now. (I'm exceptionally lucky to work freelance so if my line of work reopens, the decision is ultimately & blessedly up to me).

You never know. We each have our own realities to face. I'm sure you are correct that there are some skaters who can't wait to get back to competition. But there may also be skaters & skaters' families going through their own stressful decision making process and wishing they just knew whether they should even be expelling their mental & emotional energy in worrying about weighing the risks & benefits of travel & competition for this fall.

 

[concorde]

Even within the US, certain States require/suggest a 14 day self quarentine from certain hot spot states and Nevada is currently on the list of hot spot states. I cannot see attending Skate America knowing that I had a 2 week self quarentine on the return.

Even if SA could somehow figure out a way to only invite US based skaters, the skaters would also face the potential issue of self quarantining on the return (which means taking 2 weeks off from training) depending on where they train.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I hear entries for the "Amber Glenn Cup" are out tomorrow!

Yippeeee!!!!!!

 

[Japanfan]

Are you US based? I get the situation in the US is very bad. And the situation in Australia and New Zealand is very good, and that they want to keep it that way.

That said, "in the real world" of Europe, borders are open. Quarantines requirements are lessening by the day. People from Canada, many North African countries, many Asian countries can come visit right now, no questions asked. Life is slowly returning to normalcy, albeit with some new requirements - e.g., masks and one meter of social distancing. Travel insurance is valid again.

Knock on wood, so much has changed for the better in the past three months that I don't see why we should write off a Grand Prix that is nearly four months away, and Worlds that is nearly nine months away.

I'm bullish on the odds of Grand Prix events in the fall - well, maybe not Skate America - with decent though perhaps not perfect representation of skaters. And while I wouldn't advise people from outside Europe to buy tickets to Worlds, I think the odds of it happening are also good based on the situation on the ground today. We shouldn't go cancelling things based on a hypothetical second wave. Of course, there are unknowns and always will be - but some of the unknowns could be positives, like a vaccine sooner than anticipated.

I wish I shared your sentiments. Based on what I have heard and read, the situation in the US is likely to get worse. Without a break for a 'second' wave to occur. I am sure I am not the only Canadian who expects our US border to remain closed for the rest of the year.

At best I hope for Nationals early next year or in late December. And am hopeful about Worlds as well. It's a pretty important Worlds given that it will help determine Olympic spots - though health and safety should of course be the main determinant of whether it is held.

 

[Lemonade20]

I wish I shared your sentiments. Based on what I have heard and read, the situation in the US is likely to get worse. Without a break for a 'second' wave to occur. I am sure I am not the only Canadian who expects our US border to remain closed for the rest of the year.

At best I hope for Nationals early next year or in late December. And am hopeful about Worlds as well. It's a pretty important Worlds given that it will help determine Olympic spots - though health and safety should of course be the main determinant of whether it is held.

agreed, I’m in Canada as well. I worry for my American family & friends, it’s a difficult situation to be in. I really hope the US can recover from this. It’s done so much damage already

 

[starrynight]

I’ll copy over this post from the Russia thread discussing the JGP events.

Hungary still has its borders closed to all countries except EU nations. So that would exclude Russia and the USA, China, Japan, Canada. So it will depend on whether that will change any time soon.

As far as I can tell, Czech Republic is not letting in USA residents (not sure about Russia).

Slovakia isn't allowing entrants outside of Europe - so that counts out Canada, China, Japan, USA. But perhaps Russia can compete - but the athletes will need to take a test and quarantine until the results are returned.

In respect of Latvia - EU countries (except those with high infections such as Sweden) can travel freely, the rest need 14 days of quarantine. USA, Canada, Japan, China etc banned. No mention of Russia's status anywhere that i can find.

So.

If the JGP events proceed and things remain kind of the same, it may end up being a European Union competition. Without USA, Canada, China, Japan and potentially Russia in some places.

Then the difficulty is probably that so many athletes - like a lot of the European Union ice dancers - are based in the USA and Canada. Some of them might need to relocate home before attending any competitions that proceed.

Perhaps this season could be like those Olympics with big boycotts - skaters from small European Union feds could find themselves winning things they normally never would. Whether the big feds would be happy with this remains to be seen. It would be a flex if Russia could insert its skaters into competitions where Canada, USA, Japan and China were excluded. All the competition would be wiped out. Handy for ranking points.

I can see why some would want competitons under these conditions to proceed, it would be very politically advantageous for some feds -- but a bit disastrous for others.

 

[misskarne]

So then cancel events when the situation changes.

And this line completely blows your pseudo-intellectual act out of the water.

Because no insurance company in their right mind is going to offer cancellation insurance for a large international event that covers the 'rona. None. Are you suggesting the ISU self-insure these events? Because that would be spectacularly stupid.

I was talking about holding the event at all. Some people seem very eager for everything to be cancelled right now - why, I have no idea because it does not affect them, not even indirectly, but it affects plenty of skaters who seem to want to compete.

Since you claim to be oh-so-logical, pray tell, why would I, an Australian diehard fan of Jason Brown, be eager to cancel the one last opportunity I will have to see him in person? Why would I, who have fought many a fight for Australian skating to be taken seriously, want to have our one ISU Championship event cancelled?

Could it be simply that I have a more realistic view of the world than you, rather than actually wanting it cancelled?

 

[Deleted member 221]

I find it hard to believe, no matter how opened up other countries get, that they'd allow indoor events with 10,000-20,000 people. Which I think is what GP and ISU Championship events will typically have. I can see these events going forward but not with spectators. Sponsors would have to step up to make sure they can pay for themselves.

I'm sorry if some people think that makes me a negative nelly, but I think it's just being practical.

Even I don't think you're a negative nelly on this, and I agree with your bolded sentence.

I think the biggest outstanding questions are travel bans to/from Russia and the U.S. If those can be resolved by September 1, and as of now, I think they could be, then a modified Grand Prix is feasible. If not, then maybe a smaller, 2-4 event Grand Prix: maybe two European Grand Prix, and one Asian one? With minimal travel? Skaters do one event each? Prize money but no points?

Because no insurance company in their right mind is going to offer cancellation insurance for a large international event that covers the 'rona. None. Are you suggesting the ISU self-insure these events?

Who says it has to be a large event? I don't think arenas / ice rinks are booked up or will be anytime soon. The old rules no longer apply, and there are ways to manage risk. Run a GP like a closed-door club competition with TV rights.

 

[starrynight]

I think the biggest outstanding questions are travel bans to/from Russia and the U.S. If those can be resolved by September 1, and as of now, I think they could be,

Travel bans and quarantine for USA, Russia and China would need to be lifted. That’s a big call with political ramifications for countries’ leaders. One would wonder how politically popular that would be in many places. Cooperation between EU members is quite a different thing.

 

[misskarne]

Who says it has to be a large event? I don't think arenas / ice rinks are booked up or will be anytime soon. The old rules no longer apply, and there are ways to manage risk. Run a GP like a closed-door club competition with TV rights.

Come on. Stop being deliberately obtuse. A GP is not a small event by any standard. You have international skaters. Then you have the skaters' coaches, the team doctor, the team leader. Then you have the judges - and you can't just have a single panel to do all four divisions as not all the judges would be certified. So you have four panels' worth of judges, and technical panels, and officials. And that's before you get to the requirements to have a properly-broadcast competition, with camera operators and cable wranglers and the various required people to make sure that that goes correctly.

Let's do some rough maths, shall we?

Skaters: 12 x men + 12 x ladies + 20 x ice dancers + 20 x pair skaters = 64 skaters

Coaches: more difficult to calculate but even if we assume a certain level of overlap there will probably still be in the region of 25+ coaches.

Judging panels: 4 x 9 judges = 36 judges

Tech panels: 4 x 3 tech panel members = 12 panel members (may be able to be reduced by one or two)

Tech officials: 2 (most data operators/replay operators are accredited for all four disciplines)

So that's a total of at least 140 people. Could be more. Now add in all the needed volunteers for other requirements (ice marshals, judge wrangling, etc), and broadcasting, and we could easily have near 200 people needed for a full GP event.

Yeah. That's not a large event at all.

 

[Japanfan]

judge wrangling

Some new exciting sport I've not yet heard about? Aligned with animal wrangling for the movies?

 

[starrynight]

Skaters: 12 x men + 12 x ladies + 20 x ice dancers + 20 x pair skaters = 64 skaters

Coaches: more difficult to calculate but even if we assume a certain level of overlap there will probably still be in the region of 25+ coaches.

Also chaperones for skaters under 18 and plenty of adult skaters also need support and assistance from family etc at these large competitions.

There’s also the expense of accommodation, food and airfares for all these people.

And the travel risk. The reality of the very high expense of uninsured international medical bills cannot be underestimated. A $30k medical bill for a skaters parent could actually financially end a season for a skater.

In the big money sports they’ve all agreed to cover these risks for the athletes. But no such $$$ in skating.

 

[Orm Irian]

Some new exciting sport I've not yet heard about? Aligned with animal wrangling for the movies?

If running a skating competition is anything like running an SF convention, you do not let anyone who isn't part of the organising team but still has jobs to do and places to be at particular times wander around without a minder of some sort who will also help them get organised when they need to be ready to do those jobs. That's a recipe for disaster.

 

[morqet]

Also chaperones for skaters under 18 and plenty of adult skaters also need support and assistance from family etc at these large competitions.

There’s also the expense of accommodation, food and airfares for all these people.

And we can see from last seasons tv rights shambles that there aren't broadcasters lining up to pay to show these events, so the funding gap isn't going to be filled there.

Sports like football can carry on behind closed doors because the TV contracts are huge & the main source of income. I know that for tennis about 60% of tournament income is from ticket sales & concession sales on the grounds, which is why events like the French Open are hoping to hold their event at ~40% capacity to help with running costs. I imagine that skating is even more reliant on ticket sales cover the event costs, so even if they can find a way of holding the event behind closed doors, it probably won't be financially viable.

 

[Japanfan]

If running a skating competition is anything like running an SF convention, you do not let anyone who isn't part of the organising team but still has jobs to do and places to be at particular times wander around without a minder of some sort who will also help them get organised when they need to be ready to do those jobs. That's a recipe for disaster.

I can understand that, but wonder when it became known as 'wrangling'? Is that just your word for it?

 

[thvu]

Yeah. That's not a large event at all.

Don’t you know? Some of us are just being too negative and not creative enough. We clearly are too practical and realistic.

 

[Orm Irian]

I can understand that, but wonder when it became known as 'wrangling'? Is that just your word for it?

It's a fairly common colloquial term for that sort of job in Australia.

 

[kwanatic]

I'm a basketball fan and the NBA is rebooting, or rather, finishing off last season starting at the end of this month. The games are going to be played to fill out the remaining part of the season and then the championship. However, it's all happening in one area. All of the players who are participating will fly to Orlando and be quarantined for two weeks prior to the games being played. Games will be played in empty areas but will be broadcast. The biggest thing is the fact that all of the players are US based and are only traveling from city to city--it's a much tougher situation when you're dealing with skaters coming from all over the world.

However, I wonder if that would be something they might consider--move all of the GP events to a single location. Bring the skaters into one place and have them quarantine for the appropriate amount of time. Have participants in the first GP arrive two weeks ahead of time but stagger arrivals for the remaining events--one week into the initial quarantine group the second group would arrive and be held somewhere separate to complete their quarantine and then 3rd and so on. That would allow an event to be held every week. Same thing would have to happen for the judges and callers. Obviously, there would be no spectators allowed but it could be broadcast.

Of course there are other logistics to figure out. Like how to you hold that many skaters in quarantine and divide up ice time among them all so they can continue to practice? It would be expensive for the federations to provide hotels/housing for the athletes for an extended period of time but it's doable. I'm sure there are some other roadblocks I haven't thought of but it's just an idea.

Sadly, if something like that doesn't happen I'm not optimistic about the GP happening this year. Despite what some people think this issue isn't going to magically disappear in the next month or two. Even if things get better I feel as though the general wariness/uncertainty won't go away any time soon and that could have an major effect on how big events are conducted moving forward.

 

[Sylvia]

ISU не стал отменять серию юниорского Гран-при по фигурному катанию

Совет Международного союза конькобежцев (ISU) не стал отменять серию юниорского Гран-при по фигурному катанию сезона-2020/21 на заседании в понедельник, сообщил РИА Новости Спорт, 06.07.2020

rsport.ria.ru

MOSCOW, July 6 - RIA Novosti, Anatoly Samokhvalov. The Council of the International Union of Skaters (ISU) did not begin to cancel the series of the Junior Grand Prix in figure skating of the season 2020/21 at a meeting on Monday, a source familiar with the situation told RIA Novosti.
Initially, the Junior Grand Prix was supposed to start in August in Canada in Richmond, but due to the coronavirus pandemic, this tournament, as well as stages in Slovak Kosice and Japanese Yokohama, were canceled.
According to the agency’s source, ISU did not make a radical decision regarding the Junior Grand Prix on Monday and expects clarification of the situation with international flights in the autumn.

The 5 JGPs currently still scheduled:

Budapest HUN, Sept. 9-12, 2020
Ostrava CZE, Sept. 23-26 [with pairs]
Tashkent UZB, Sept. 30-Oct. 3 [with pairs]
Ljubljana SLO, Oct. 7-10
Riga LAT, Oct. 14-17 (added) [with pairs]

 

[overedge]

@kwanatic Some of the articles I've read about the NBA plan have pointed out that even if it's called a bubble, it's not a bubble. For example, the staff at the hotels and the arenas are likely not going to be quarantined for the entire time - they will come in to work every day and then go home. So they are regularly in contact with people outside the bubble, and that means if they catch anything they can spread it inside the bubble. And if it gets spread, it is likely going to spread even faster among people in the bubble because they are near each other all the time.

 

[DobrinFan]

Lakernik: ISU will not make hasty decisions on the adult stages of the Grand Prix

The International Skating Union (ISU) does not intend to make hasty decisions on the adult stages of the Grand Prix. This was reported to TASS by ISU Vice President Alexander Lakernik.

Currently, due to the difficult epidemiological situation, most countries remain closed, which makes it possible to postpone or cancel some competitions.

“The question is about the next starts, but, for example, the decision on the adult Grand Prix is still tolerated. It will be made in early August, and now it’s not worth waiting for decisions,” said Lakernik. “At the moment, a decision on junior Grand Prix, for the Challenger series tournaments, for those starts that begin the season."

Лакерник: ISU не будет принимать скоропалительных решений по взрослым этапам Гран-при

По словам вице-президента ISU, решение будет приниматься в начале августа

tass.ru

 

[Erin]

It's a fairly common colloquial term for that sort of job in Australia.

I’ve heard it used plenty in Canada too.

 

[MacMadame]

I’ve heard it used plenty in Canada too.

And in the US.

The old rules no longer apply,

This is something that I think some people are struggling with. Including maybe even the ISU.

Just as we've seen some business owners rise to the challenge and come up with new ways to generate revenue -- liquor manufactures making hand santizer, for example -- we've seen others just throw up their hands if they can't do things as they've always done them. And sometimes being creative isn't enough if the $$$ don't work out.

Travel bans and quarantine for USA, Russia and China would need to be lifted. That’s a big call with political ramifications for countries’ leaders. One would wonder how politically popular that would be in many places. Cooperation between EU members is quite a different thing.

I think travel bans to/from China will be lifted by Oct. I haven't paid much attention to Russia but I would be surprised if the US ever gets this under control until there is some sort of changing of the guard in DC.

Right now we have 2 events in Europe, 2 in Asia and 2 in NA. Canada is being cautious with international travel and the US is a clusterf*ck. Maybe we can have 3 events in Europe and 3 in Asia. It wouldn't solve the situation in Russia and not all skaters could participate but it would be something.