2024-25 US Pairs Discussion - Triple-Twisting Through Tornado Alley

[ice coverage]

Chan/Howe also have a bye to 2025 Nats because they were on 2024 World Team.

https://www.usfigureskating.org/sites/default/files/media-files/2025%20Qualifying%20Bye%20Advancement%20Criteria%20FINAL.pdf

https://www.usfigureskating.org/sites/default/files/media-files/2024-25 Rulebook.pdf - Rule 2510

The following 6 teams do not meet the criteria listed in the 1st document (3 approved int'l competitions):
Chan/Howe (SCI & Finlandia + Shanghai Trophy) ...

Obviously, Chan/Howe ... will receive a Bye despite not meeting the criteria since they have had 3 internationals including 2 that are on the approved competitions list as their 2nd approved competition is at the same time as the Pairs Final. ...

As I have said before:

Chan/Howe already definitely have a bye to 2025 Nats, because they meet the criterion of being on 2024 World Team, which is listed in the first document.

 

[Karen-W]

As I have said before:

Chan/Howe already definitely have a bye to 2025 Nats, because they meet the criterion of being on 2024 World Team, which is listed in the first document.

I keep forgetting that, lol!

I edited my previous post to reflect this.

 

[haribobo]

So basically, Korytek is likely to win the Pairs Final and the final spot at Nationals is between Cooke, Fredette, and Hanns...

 

[Sylvia]

If Olivia Flores/Luke Wang have decided to stay junior then 3 pairs would qualify for Nationals.

 

[Karen-W]

If Olivia Flores/Luke Wang have decided to stay junior then 3 pairs would qualify for Nationals.

Right. I think someone noted that they weren't listed on the NQS Jr Pairs leader list earlier this fall despite competing Jr at Glacier Falls, so the educated guess is they're moving to seniors domestically.

 

[kalamalka]

Shin/Nagy and Martins/Bedard are assigned to CS Warsaw Cup (Nov. 20-24) which gets them out of the U.S. Pairs Final (Senior Pairs compete Nov. 14-15).

ETA:

4 pairs?
Cooke/Kennedy
Fredette/Siianytsia
Hanns/Neudecker
Korytek/Chapman

 

[kalamalka]

Sorry - that was an unintentional post while I was reading.

 

[Sylvia]

Efimova/Mitrofanov certainly had a great opportunity to win another GP bronze today, but, alas, 4th in FS and 4th overall: https://x.com/goldenskate/status/1852799027525325255

Alisa Efimova / Misha Mitrofanov 107.84 / 171.92 [128.46 / 191.51 at SkAm]
Alisa: “If something doesn’t work the way you trained for, it’s always a bit of a disappointment and we aren’t feeling too good right now.
We were happy that we got this opportunity to skate at two GP events and even medal at Skate America. That was for sure a highlight for us.”
On what happened at the lift [came down early]:
Misha: “I guess the timing wasn’t right. But we know such things happen and you have to keep going with the program.”
They will have another event ahead of Nationals that will be determined soon.

Sounds like he's alluding to CS Golden Spin of Zagreb.

 

[Karen-W]

Mid-way through the GP season and with just 3 Challengers to go, here are the current standings for the USFS' ISU Championships Selection Pool Criteria...

X = Assigned Int'l competition

Skater

Level

Age Eligible

ISU Min Score

2024 U.S. Nats

GPF

GP/ JGP 1

GP/ JGP 2

GP/ JPG Highest

GP/ JGP Avg

CS/ Sr B/ Jr Int 1

CS/ Sr B/ Jr Int 2

CS/ Sr B/ Jr Int Highest

CS/ Sr B/ Jr Int Avg

Sect Final (Top 2 in each Section JR/SR)

NQS Score (Top 2 in each Section JR/SR)

Non-USFS Funded Event

Prev Yr Final Number

Total

Chan, Emily/Howe, Spencer

S

Y

Y

178.31​

X

178.31​

89.16​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

155.64​

0

412.15​

Cooke, Sydney/Kennedy, Matthew

S

Y

N

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

137.86​

0

34.47​

Digerness, Nica/Sadusky, Mark

S

Y

4CCs

0.00​

0.00​

147.72​

147.72​

73.86​

166.00​

X

0

244.62​

Efimova, Alisa/Mitrofanov, Misha

S

Y

Y

191.51​

171.92​

191.51​

181.72​

188.88​

178.03​

188.88​

183.46​

188.88​

2

870.22​

Fitzpatrick, Linzy/Bearinger, Keyton

S

Y

PEND

0.00​

0.00​

134.86​

134.86​

67.43​

134.86​

X

0

219.15​

Fredette, Meghan/Siianytsia, Danylo

S

Y

N

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

90.37​

0

22.59​

Hanns, Evelyn Grace/Neudecker, Danny

S

Y

4CCs

0.00​

0.00​

128.78​

128.78​

64.39​

135.49​

0

210.95​

Kam, Ellie/O'Shea, Danny

S

Y

Y

201.73​

X

201.73​

100.87​

191.62​

184.38​

191.62​

188.00​

191.62​

10

908.77​

Korytek, Ellie/Chapman, Timmy

S

N

N

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

156.28​

0

39.07​

Martins, Isabelle/Bedard, Ryan

S

Y

4CCs

X

0.00​

0.00​

X

0.00​

0.00​

141.52​

0

35.38​

McBeath, Katie/Parkman, Daniil

S

Y

Y

168.08​

X

168.08​

84.04​

173.37​

173.37​

86.69​

173.37​

0

596.88​

Shin, Audrey/Nagy, Balasz

S

Y

PEND

0.00​

0.00​

X

0.00​

0.00​

157.59​

0

39.40​

Williams, Naomi/Lewer, Lachlan

S/J

Y

Y/Y

X

0.00​

0.00​

145.94​

145.94​

72.97​

148.57​

155.46​

8

435.54​

 

[happycamper2554]

Mid-way through the GP season and with just 3 Challengers to go, here are the current standings for the USFS' ISU Championships Selection Pool Criteria...

X = Assigned Int'l competition

Skater

Level

Age Eligible

ISU Min Score

2024 U.S. Nats

GPF

GP/ JGP 1

GP/ JGP 2

GP/ JPG Highest

GP/ JGP Avg

CS/ Sr B/ Jr Int 1

CS/ Sr B/ Jr Int 2

CS/ Sr B/ Jr Int Highest

CS/ Sr B/ Jr Int Avg

Sect Final (Top 2 in each Section JR/SR)

NQS Score (Top 2 in each Section JR/SR)

Non-USFS Funded Event

Prev Yr Final Number

Total

Chan, Emily/Howe, Spencer

S

Y

Y

178.31​

X

178.31​

89.16​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

155.64​

0

412.15​

Cooke, Sydney/Kennedy, Matthew

S

Y

Y

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

137.86​

0

34.47​

Digerness, Nica/Sadusky, Mark

S

Y

Y

0.00​

0.00​

147.72​

147.72​

73.86​

166.00​

X

0

244.62​

Efimova, Alisa/Mitrofanov, Misha

S

Y

Y

191.51​

171.92​

191.51​

181.72​

188.88​

178.03​

188.88​

183.46​

188.88​

2

870.22​

Fitzpatrick, Linzy/Bearinger, Keyton

S

Y

Y

0.00​

0.00​

134.86​

134.86​

67.43​

134.86​

X

0

219.15​

Fredette, Meghan/Siianytsia, Danylo

S

Y

Y

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

90.37​

0

22.59​

Hanns, Evelyn Grace/Neudecker, Danny

S

Y

Y

0.00​

0.00​

128.78​

128.78​

64.39​

135.49​

0

210.95​

Kam, Ellie/O'Shea, Danny

S

Y

Y

201.73​

X

201.73​

100.87​

191.62​

184.38​

191.62​

188.00​

191.62​

10

908.77​

Korytek, Ellie/Chapman, Timmy

S

N

Y

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

156.28​

0

39.07​

Martins, Isabelle/Bedard, Ryan

S

Y

Y

X

0.00​

0.00​

X

0.00​

0.00​

141.52​

0

35.38​

McBeath, Katie/Parkman, Daniil

S

Y

Y

168.08​

X

168.08​

84.04​

173.37​

173.37​

86.69​

173.37​

0

596.88​

Shin, Audrey/Nagy, Balasz

S

Y

Y

0.00​

0.00​

X

0.00​

0.00​

157.59​

0

39.40​

Williams, Naomi/Lewer, Lachlan

S/J

Y

Y

X

0.00​

0.00​

145.94​

145.94​

72.97​

148.57​

155.46​

8

435.54​

With this Criteria, any hope for Flores and Wang next year assuming they skate well or not enough BOW?

 

[Theatregirl1122]

This is how you get in to the conversation, right? And then the selection criteria just list what they will consider but are more subjective?

 

[Karen-W]

With this Criteria, any hope for Flores and Wang next year assuming they skate well or not enough BOW?

Well, this is just this year's selection criteria. I don't think the USFS has released the Olympic Team BOW selection doc yet.

For reference - this is what they did in 2021-22 -

	Group 1 Highest Priority	Group 2	Group 3	Group 4 Lowest Priority
CRITERIA FOR 2022 US CHAMPIONSHIPS	Placed in the top 3 AND	Placed in the top 5 AND	Placed in the top 3 OR	Placed in the top 5 OR
CRITERIA FOR 2021 INTERNATIONAL SCORES *	Consistently scored equal to Top 3 at 2021 Worlds M – 289.18 W – 217.20 P – 217.63 D – 214.35	Consistently scored equal to Top 5 at 2021 Worlds M – 272.04 W – 208.44 P – 201.18 D – 208.77 AND/OR scored once equal to Top 3 at 2021 Worlds	Consistently scored equal to Top 10 at 2021 Worlds M – 245.99 W – 193.44 P – 184.41 D – 188.45 AND/OR scored once equal to Top 5 at 2021 Worlds	Consistently scored equal to Top 15 at 2021 Worlds M – 225.55 W – 178.10 P – 157.29 D – 178.18 OR Scored once equal to Top 10 at 2021 Worlds

If they have some sort of hybrid between what they're doing now and what they did in 2021-22, then Flores/Wang would have to earn their way into a higher priority group than the other teams they're going up against. Based upon what I've seen, they have a ways to go before they'll be competitive with Kam/O'Shea and Chan/Howe (the two teams we KNOW both have US citizenship and are eligible for the Olympics).

If the US gets a third spot back... they'd need to beat out teams like Plazas/Fernandez, Shin/Nagy, Martins/Bedard, Williams/Lewer, Digerness/Sadusky, and Korytek/Chapman, plus maybe McBeath/Parkman (he lived in the US when he was in elementary school, so he may have US citizenship and we just aren't aware of it). It's not impossible to rule them out, but FlorWang need to improve a lot before I'd consider them anything but a possible contender in with a bunch of inconsistent teams, some of whom've shown the ability to score higher than FlorWang internationally.

This is how you get in to the conversation, right? And then the selection criteria just list what they will consider but are more subjective?

Yes, the USFS can do what it wants once the Selection Pool has been finalized.

 

[Karen-W]

Okay, per notes from @ice coverage in the US Ice Dance thread, I've updated the tables and am sharing both the sr & jr ones again.

Senior -

Skater

Level

Age Eligible

ISU Min Score

2024 U.S. Nats

GPF

GP/ JGP 1

GP/ JGP 2

GP/ JPG Highest

GP/ JGP Avg

CS/ Sr B/ Jr Int 1

CS/ Sr B/ Jr Int 2

CS/ Sr B/ Jr Int Highest

CS/ Sr B/ Jr Int Avg

Pairs Final (Top 2 in each Section JR/SR)

NQS Score (Top 2 in each Section JR/SR)

Non-USFS Funded Event

Prev Yr Final Number

Total

Chan, Emily/Howe, Spencer

S

Y

Y

0.00​

178.31​

142.65​

178.31​

160.48​

0.00​

0.00​

142.65​

142.65​

0.00​

155.64​

0

750.94​

Cooke, Sydney/Kennedy, Matthew

S

Y

N

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

137.86​

0.00​

0

34.47​

Digerness, Nica/Sadusky, Mark

S

Y

PEND/4CCs

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

147.72​

110.79​

147.72​

129.26​

166.00​

0.00​

0

286.16​

Efimova, Alisa/Mitrofanov, Misha

S

Y

Y

0.00​

191.51​

171.92​

191.51​

181.72​

188.88​

178.03​

188.88​

183.46​

188.88​

0.00​

2

870.22​

Fitzpatrick, Linzy/Bearinger, Keyton

S

Y

PEND

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

134.86​

101.15​

134.86​

118.00​

134.86​

0.00​

0

257.08​

Fredette, Meghan/Siianytsia, Danylo

S

Y

N

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

90.70​

0.00​

0

22.68​

Hanns, Evelyn Grace/Neudecker, Danny

S

Y

4CCs

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

128.78​

96.59​

128.78​

112.68​

135.49​

0.00​

0

247.16​

Kam, Ellie/O'Shea, Danny

S

Y

Y

201.73​

161.38​

201.73​

181.56​

191.62​

184.38​

191.62​

188.00​

191.62​

0.00​

10

1009.63​

Korytek, Ellie/Chapman, Timmy

S

N

N

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

156.28​

0.00​

0

39.07​

Martins, Isabelle/Bedard, Ryan

S

Y

PEND/4CCs

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

141.52​

0.00​

0

35.38​

McBeath, Katie/Parkman, Daniil

S

Y

Y

0.00​

168.08​

134.46​

168.08​

151.27​

173.37​

130.03​

173.37​

151.70​

173.37​

0.00​

0

729.68​

Shin, Audrey/Nagy, Balasz

S

Y

PEND

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

157.59​

0.00​

0

39.40​

Junior -

Skater

Level

Age Eligible

ISU Min Score

2024 U.S. Nats

GPF

GP/ JGP 1

GP/ JGP 2

GP/ JPG Highest

GP/ JGP Avg

CS/ Sr B/ Jr Int 1

CS/ Sr B/ Jr Int 2

CS/ Sr B/ Jr Int Highest

CS/ Sr B/ Jr Int Avg

Pairs Final (Top 2 in each Section JR/SR)

NQS Score (Top 2 in each Section JR/SR)

Non-USFS Funded Event

Prev Yr Final Number

Total

Carpenter, Saya/Maravilla, Jon

J

Y

Y

0.00​

125.23​

129.80​

129.80​

127.52​

0.00​

0.00​

103.84​

103.84​

0.00​

140.79​

0

573.76​

Flores, Olivia/Wang, Luke

S (J)

Y

Y

0.00​

139.51​

147.80​

147.80​

143.66​

0.00​

0.00​

118.24​

118.24​

165.53​

0.00​

8

732.62​

Gottschalk, Graceann/Herbert, Sam

J

?

N

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

102.20​

0.00​

0

25.55​

Grohne, Jolene/Lunt, Reede

J

Y

N

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

95.30​

0.00​

0

23.83​

Hansen, Elizabeth/Church, William

J

Y

Y

0.00​

125.46​

132.44​

132.44​

128.95​

0.00​

0.00​

105.95​

105.95​

132.27​

0.00​

0

545.22​

Jarmoc, Sofia/Witkowski, Luke

J

Y

N

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

123.62​

0.00​

0

30.91​

Kovar, Milada/McPike, Jared

J

Y

N

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

97.10​

0.00​

0

24.28​

McDanold, Addyson/Felberbaum, Aaron

J

Y

Y

0.00​

121.82​

97.46​

121.82​

109.64​

105.19​

78.89​

105.19​

92.04​

113.48​

134.72​

0

559.27​

McFarland, Mazie/Andjorin, Samir

J

?

N

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

108.51​

0.00​

0

27.13​

Moss, Reagan/Galbavy, Jakub

J

Y

Y

0.00​

127.16​

122.18​

127.16​

124.67​

126.87​

95.15​

126.87​

111.01​

145.48​

127.34​

0

624.96​

Shapovalova, Taisiya/Griffin, Carter

J

Y

N

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

106.78​

0.00​

0

26.70​

Williams, Naomi/Lewer, Lachlan

S/J

Y

Y/Y

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

0.00​

145.94​

109.46​

145.94​

127.70​

148.57​

155.46​

8

476.59​

 

[marshallpond]

https://imgur.com/a/1Qogn7w

 

[Karen-W]

https://imgur.com/a/1Qogn7w

Well, this confirms that Flores/Wang are competing as Juniors domestically this year.

 

[Sylvia]

Ellie Kam/Danny O’Shea won their 2nd Grand Prix medal (bronze) of the season at NHK Trophy — 197.44 (69.15 in SP, 128.29 in FS) — and now have a decent chance to qualify for the GP Final.

Danny’s 12 photos from NHK Trophy: https://www.instagram.com/p/DCNe9-dxehH/

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

Ellie’s short highlight reel:

Ellie Kam on Instagram: "love you japan❤️ #nhktrophy"

elliekam.w on November 10, 2024: "love you japan❤️ #nhktrophy".

www.instagram.com

Isabelle Martins/Ryan Bedard finished 8th (140.63) - Danny’s 4th photo shows them dressed up for the post-comp. banquet with 7 of the 8 pairs.

Results from the IceChallenge Senior B in Graz, Austria:
SILVER Nica Digerness/Mark Sadusky 158.20 1 3 (58.31 SP, 99.89 FS)
BRONZE Linzy Fitzpatrick/Keyton Bearinger 151.61 4 2 (50.26 SP, 101.35 FS)

F/B’s Graz photos (3rd one shows both U.S. teams with their coaches at this competition, Amanda Evora and Katherine Hill, who choreographed D/S’ FS with Ben Agosto):

Linzy Fitzpatrick and Keyton Bearinger on Instagram: "2024 Ice Challenge 🥉 Thank you @usfigureskating for sending us to our first European international here in Austria🇦🇹 We had an amazing experience and many memories at @icechallenge_graz , includin

team_linzykeyton on November 10, 2024: "2024 Ice Challenge 🥉 Thank you @usfigureskating for sending us to our first European international here in Austria🇦🇹 We had an amazing experience and many memories at @icechallenge_graz , including bringing home our first international medal! It was not...

www.instagram.com

 

[Karen-W]

https://imgur.com/a/1Qogn7w

Also, one other question... We know Plazas/Fernandez are out for the rest of the season because Max is having surgery. They had a Top 5 Nats bye, so the question is, does their spot go to the 3rd best at the Pairs Final or are we going to wind up with just 11 teams?

 

[BrightSkates]

Also, one other question... We know Plazas/Fernandez are out for the rest of the season because Max is having surgery. They had a Top 5 Nats bye, so the question is, does their spot go to the 3rd best at the Pairs Final or are we going to wind up with just 11 teams?

That's if all three get their minimums at the pair final.

 

[Karen-W]

That's if all three get their minimums at the pair final.

Just a reminder of what the US Nats Pairs Mins are:

And those who lack one or both tech minimums for 2025 Nats (SP 25.00 and FS 42.00) will need to achieve them at NQS Boston or U.S. Pairs Final. As of now (AFAIK):

Cooke/Kennedy SP - yes; FS - no
Fredette/Siianytsia SP - yes; FS - no (highly watered down FS)
Hanns/Neudecker SP - yes; FS - yes
Korytek/Chapman SP - yes; FS - yes

 

[Sylvia]

Re-posting here from the Sectionals competition thread in Kiss & Cry... Fredette/Siianytsia are not listed in the U.S. Pairs Final Senior Pairs SP starting order: https://ijs.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2024/34289/CAT003SEG004.html

 

[Karen-W]

Re-posting here from the Sectionals competition thread in Kiss & Cry... Fredette/Siianytsia are not listed in the U.S. Pairs Final Senior Pairs SP starting order: https://ijs.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2024/34289/CAT003SEG004.html

Well, that's that. All Cooke/Kennedy need is to earn the FS min and they'll be going to Nats.

 

[Karen-W]

Also of note, Carpenter/Maravilla are not listed on the Jr Pairs start list.

 

[Sylvia]

Also of note, Carpenter/Maravilla are not listed on the Jr Pairs start list.

They're listed (my copy-and-paste in the Sectionals thread left them out, oops!): https://ijs.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2024/34289/CAT005SEG007.html

 

[BrightSkates]

Just a reminder of what the US Nats Pairs Mins are:

Cooke/Kennedy SP - yes; FS - no
Fredette/Siianytsia SP - yes; FS - no (highly watered down FS)
Hanns/Neudecker SP - yes; FS - yes
Korytek/Chapman SP - yes; FS - yes

Hanns/Neudecker SP When?

 

[Karen-W]

Hanns/Neudecker SP When?

I presumed their 2023 John Nicks IPC SP TES score would carry over since it carries over for the ISU for two seasons.

 

[ice coverage]

I presumed their 2023 John Nicks IPC SP TES score would carry over since it carries over for the ISU for two seasons.

TES minimums for U.S. Nats must be met "in the same season," per USFS.

https://www.usfigureskating.org/sites/default/files/media-files/TN%20308%20Minimum%20TES%202025.pdf

 

[Sylvia]

Posting these before the start of Finlandia Trophy:

Ellie Kam & Danny O'Shea 3-minute feature (taped at Champs Camp? uploaded on Nov. 4): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2DwVM9dsJI

Naomi Williams & Lachlan Lewer 2-minute feature (uploaded on Nov. 12 before their Senior GP debut): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aH9uunSMnQc

 

[Karen-W]

Well, the Jr & Srs at the US Pairs Final is done. Sr Pairs was a real slog to get through.

Cooke/Kennedy DID achieve the TES min they needed for the FS. Hanns/Neudecker did not get the SP min, but it occurred to me that the USFS may overlook this and still grant them a bye to Nats. How/why?

The ISU has changed this summer to the Combined TES min requirement, a change that was made after the USFS Governing Council. It may be that the USFS grants a special exception to Hanns/Neudecker this season because if they combined the TES SP & FS TES mins - 25+42 = 67, then Hanns/Neudecker would have exceeded that (23.08+45.61 = 68.69).

Thoughts?

 

[BrightSkates]

Well, the Jr & Srs at the US Pairs Final is done. Sr Pairs was a real slog to get through.

Cooke/Kennedy DID achieve the TES min they needed for the FS. Hanns/Neudecker did not get the SP min, but it occurred to me that the USFS may overlook this and still grant them a bye to Nats. How/why?

The ISU has changed this summer to the Combined TES min requirement, a change that was made after the USFS Governing Council. It may be that the USFS grants a special exception to Hanns/Neudecker this season because if they combined the TES SP & FS TES mins - 25+42 = 67, then Hanns/Neudecker would have exceeded that (23.08+45.61 = 68.69).

Thoughts?

Thoughts is that both progrems from H/N are not Nationals worthy and .. I didn't even think Cooke/Kennedy were but at least the SS are there.

 

[Karen-W]

Thoughts is that both progrems from H/N are not Nationals worthy and .. I didn't even think Cooke/Kennedy were but at least the SS are there.

Oh, I don't disagree with you at all. I wish PlaFern were going to be in shape by Nats. I'm just trying to figure out what I think is most likely to happen with regard to 12 spots at Nats and I can see some twisted light in letting HanNeu in by a CTES rationale.