"Harley & Katya" documentary

[oleada]

Watched this tonight. Heart breaking. Katya was faliwd by so many.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I watched it last night having known almost all of the key points of this. So sad. I wish they would’ve spent a bit more time on final moments of Katya maybe that was a personal decision not to.

was so frustrating that in the interviews, the journalists couldn’t even bother to once ever get an interpreter for her. She’s a teenager and they expect her to respond back in English to their English? All those journalist should’ve been canceled on the spot. Common sense 101.

whenever I think about her, I think of the note she left, which is quite touching, but they did not mention it in the documentary

 

[overedge]

Mr Overedge and I watched this on Netflix Canada. Even though I was familiar with the story, I was incredibly impressed with this film. I thought it told a very tragic story with respect and dignity for those involved. So much pressure on both of them for different reasons: Katya to do well to support her family, Harley being expected to be a role model and spokesperson for the Indigenous people. And on top of that, enduring coaching practices that might be seen as abusive - certainly not as supportive and positive as they could have been. Also the pressure of keeping their funding, and the lack of meaningful support from the Australian sport administrators.

I knew that Katya allegedly had issues with drinking, but I was that she was allegedly drinking before going on the ice. That is super-scary, seeing as how pairs women are already doing very dangerous elements. I can't imagine how much riskier it would be, for everyone on the ice, if the woman was drunk. Katya must have known on some level that what she was doing wasn't safe, but how very sad that she was so desperate that she used alcohol as a coping mechanism.

I was totally impressed by Belinda Noonan. She seemed to be the one person in a sports administration role who suspected things were not well, and who did what she could to help them.

The ending seemed to suggest that the ISU raising the age limit for seniors will stop a situation like this from happening again. I don't think it will, on its own - there are a lot of other things that also need to be fixed - and if there was anything I wished was different in this film, I wish they would have explored that complexity a bit more. But overall this film was extremely well done.

 

[Judy]

Mr Overedge and I watched this on Netflix Canada. Even though I was familiar with the story, I was incredibly impressed with this film. I thought it told a very tragic story with respect and dignity for those involved. So much pressure on both of them for different reasons (Katya to do well to support her family, Harley being expected to be a role model and spokesperson for the Indigenous people), and on top of that, coaching practices that might be seen as abusive - certainly not as supportive and positive as they could have been. Also the pressure of keeping their funding and the lack of meaningful support from the Australian sport administrators.

I knew that Katya allegedly had issues with drinking, but I was that she was allegedly drinking before going on the ice. That is super-scary, seeing as how pairs women are already doing very dangerous elements. I can't imagine how much riskier it would be, for everyone on the ice, if the woman was drunk. Katya must have known on some level that what she was doing wasn't safe, but how very sad that she was so desperate that she used alcohol as a coping mechanism.

I was totally impressed by Belinda Noonan, who seemed to be the one person in a sports administration role who suspected things were not well, and who did what she could to help them.

The ending seemed to suggest that the ISU raising the age limit for seniors will stop a situation like this from happening again. I don't think it will, on its own - there are a lot of other things that also need to be fixed - and if there was anything I wished was different in this film, I wish they would have explored that complexity a bit more. But overall this film was extremely well done.

100% she was drinking. just a big cascade of multiple things happening that ended really tragically .

Harley got viciously attacked afterwards on social media too blaming him. That really helps nobody especially a younger person who is going through his own grief and shock. Suicide is just devastating . Her mom has lost everything . Cascading mistakes.

 

[hanca]

100% she was drinking. just a big cascade of multiple things happening that ended really tragically .

Harley got viciously attacked afterwards on social media too blaming him. That really helps nobody especially a younger person who is going through his own grief and shock. Suicide is just devastating . Her mom has lost everything . Cascading mistakes.

I am not surprised, after the things he was saying in the documentary. I am not condoning him being attacked on social media but I can’t make myself feel sorry for him either. In fact, serves him right.

 

[CarolineBingley]

I am not surprised, after the things he was saying in the documentary. I am not condoning him being attacked on social media but I can’t make myself feel sorry for him either. In fact, serves him right.

I watched last night - what did he say in the documentary that could be construed negatively toward Katya?

 

[hanca]

I watched last night - what did he say in the documentary that could be construed negatively toward Katya?

Post 58 and 60 of this thread.

 

[Judy]

I am not surprised, after the things he was saying in the documentary. I am not condoning him being attacked on social media but I can’t make myself feel sorry for him either. In fact, serves him right.

Why?

 

[peibeck]

I watched having very mixed feelings about Harley, mainly because he admits he found the abusive treatment of his and Katya's original Russian coaches to be motivating, and didn't see how an already vulnerable Katya was falling into addiction because of it, especially once they were no longer getting on the podium. But it's also obvious he was devastated by her suicide, and I didn't feel that it was solely because he lost his skating partner, but indeed a friend.

I think it is good documentary film making to allow the participants to not always appear in the best light.

 

[CarolineBingley]

Post 58 and 60 of this thread.

He's reflecting on where his head was at during that time frame. Let's not forget that as mental/emotional maturity goes, they were equivalents. Absolutely nothing wrong in recognizing that the situation was not made worse, as it would have been had they been able to more easily communicate during that first year.
It seems to me that they each recognized the value in staying together as a team and working through as best they could. We'll sadly never know what her ending could have been had the discovery of her "epilepsy" been handled with more care and concern for her overall well being. It seemed to me that there was an implication of the epilepsy being a result alcohol consumption. Had she been supported in dealing with that, whose to say should could not have made a return to the ice.

 

[Judy]

I watched having very mixed feelings about Harley, mainly because he admits he found the abusive treatment of his and Katya's original Russian coaches to be motivating, and didn't see how an already vulnerable Katya was falling into addiction because of it, especially once they were no longer getting on the podium. But it's also obvious he was devastated by her suicide, and I didn't feel that it was solely because he lost his skating partner, but indeed a friend.

I think it is good documentary film making to allow the participants to not always appear in the best light.

That’s not how he said it though. He said he was motivated by always being corrected to do better. At some point she likely was too. Things changed drastically for her after the Olympics. I don’t blame her for that and wanting a more appropriate coach. He agreed to change as well.

There obviously was a ton of stuff going on with her. The two of them were kids (yes he was 3 years older but that’s really young). A ton of grown ups involved that really needed to pay more attention especially with the discovery she was drinking.

He would have been 19? Maybe 22ish when they finished? I def wouldn’t have known what to do at that age without more life experience. Today .. yeah I def would but def not when I was that age.

You also have to factor in that you can offer help but if a person is not yet ready to accept help either it won’t work. I dunno might have already been too late for her at that stage even. I’m sure there’s stuff we don’t know simply because you never find out everything.

 

[overedge]

"Being corrected to do better" can be done without yelling at the skaters. The coach can also wait until the skaters have finished the element or the program to give them feedback, not yell at them as soon as it happens.

Waiting can be especially effective because it helps the skaters learn how to manage mistakes on their own. If they make a mistake during a competitive program, the coach isn't going to be able to yell instructions to them.

 

[Colonel Green]

The ending seemed to suggest that the ISU raising the age limit for seniors will stop a situation like this from happening again. I don't think it will, on its own - there are a lot of other things that also need to be fixed - and if there was anything I wished was different in this film, I wish they would have explored that complexity a bit more. But overall this film was extremely well done.

That ending montage definitely felt like a non sequitur to me, both because it made it seem like the move to raise the age limit was largely about Alexandrovskaya (when it was mostly about the junior Russian ladies, supercharged by Valieva-gate) and the implication that it would have made a difference in her situation, and I don't see how the latter is so. She'd still have been old enough for the Pyeongchang Olympic season, and even if she hadn't been, I don't see much indication that staying junior longer would have helped with her problems.

 

[Orm Irian]

it made it seem like the move to raise the age limit was largely about Alexandrovskaya (when it was mostly about the junior Russian ladies, supercharged by Valieva-gate) and the implication that it would have made a difference in her situation

It was in fact almost entirely about Katya, as her death was what set the whole process that led up to the change being made in motion. And the Olympics have nothing to do with how it could have helped her. With the higher age limit in place, the odds of an ill, grieving kid being traded away from what family and friends she had left to the other end of the planet, a country where she didn't speak the language, a partner she couldn't properly communicate with, an abusive coaching set-up and a federation that had no clue how to support her or her partnership at the age of 15 would have been drastically lessened. It wasn't about her getting to the Olympics or not, it was about her well-being as a person and how the lower age limit disregarded that, and the well-being of every other skater in the sport too.

 

[Colonel Green]

With the higher age limit in place, the odds of an ill, grieving kid being traded away from what family and friends she had left to the other end of the planet, a country where she didn't speak the language, a partner she couldn't properly communicate with, an abusive coaching set-up and a federation that had no clue how to support her or her partnership at the age of 15 would have been drastically lessened.

I don't see much reason to think it would have changed anything. They'd still have been competing in junior; people move around the world for partnerships in junior all the time, and still do.

None of this is disagreement with raising the age limit, to be clear.

 

[airgelaal]

The ending seemed to suggest that the ISU raising the age limit for seniors will stop a situation like this from happening again. I don't think it will, on its own - there are a lot of other things that also need to be fixed - and if there was anything I wished was different in this film, I wish they would have explored that complexity a bit more. But overall this film was extremely well done.

Exactly. Minors continue to move to other countries and compete in junior competitions.
Perhaps there should be more serious rules for minors regarding the change of sports citizenship. At least within the federation.

 

[hanca]

But it's also obvious he was devastated by her suicide, and I didn't feel that it was solely because he lost his skating partner, but indeed a friend.

I think it is good documentary film making to allow the participants to not always appear in the best light.

I can believe that he was devastated. He would be a psychopath if he wasn’t. But I don’t think he ‘lost a friend’. Firstly, it doesn’t seem that they were ever ‘friends’. They more or less tolerated each other, the way you tolerate a coworker with whom you are forced to work with every day, but it doesn’t seem that there was any form of personal relationship between them as such. And he replaced her with another young Russian girl, Chernyshova, that also didn’t indicate that he learned anything.

 

[Judy]

I can believe that he was devastated. He would be a psychopath if he wasn’t. But I don’t think he ‘lost a friend’. Firstly, it doesn’t seem that they were ever ‘friends’. They more or less tolerated each other, the way you tolerate a coworker with whom you are forced to work with every day, but it doesn’t seem that there was any form of personal relationship between them as such. And he replaced her with another young Russian girl, Chernyshova, that also didn’t indicate that he learned anything.

It’s not the first time a team breaks up for whatever reason and they look for another partner though. I would think both of them recognized that they made a great team together though. Which they definitely did. Maybe it’s more difficult to form a bond when you dn’t speak each other’s language too. IMO that’s tough.

 

[hanca]

It’s not the first time a team breaks up for whatever reason and they look for another partner though. I would think both of them recognized that they made a great team together though. Which they definitely did. Maybe it’s more difficult to form a bond when you dn’t speak each other’s language too. IMO that’s tough.

My issue is not that they broke up and he was found a new partner. My issue is that her isolation and unhappiness lead to Katya becoming an alcoholic, and yet Windsor didn’t learn anything from the past at all (and at that time he was already in his twenties, so definitely an adult). He found another Russian teenager and put her in exactly same situation. It wasn’t as if he stated ‘I am an adult and you are legally a child, let’s train in Russia because at least you can be with your family, you would have friends around you, speak the language and not be so isolated’. Nope, he again imported a child into Australia, hoping that it will turn out better this time. I was quite relieved when the partnership didn’t work out. When I heard that he paired up with a girl with South Korean background, I was hoping that they would train in South Korea, so that he would have an opportunity to experience the isolation Katya lived in. I though that would be an important learning experience for him. But…no such luck. They are training in Ontario.

 

[Sylvia]

When I heard that he paired up with a girl with South Korean background, I was hoping that they would train in South Korea, so that he would have an opportunity to experience the isolation Katya lived in. I though that would be an important learning experience for him. But…no such luck. They are training in Ontario.

Who could they have trained with in South Korea? There are no pairs coaches there.

ETA: Thanks to everyone who has shared their impressions so far (I don't have Netflix so can't watch but hope to someday).

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

And he replaced her with another young Russian girl, Chernyshova, that also didn’t indicate that he learned anything.

I had been wondering ….. they were registered for a Grand Prix or some thing this year or last year, and I never saw their names appear at any other competition again. Have they already split?

 

[Sylvia]

I had been wondering ….. they were registered for a Grand Prix or some thing this year or last year, and I never saw their names appear at any other competition again. Have they already split?

Windsor has teamed up with Canadian-born Korean Hyejin Cho - their partnershp for South Korea was announced in late July: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/australian-skating-news.98953/page-57#post-6453133

ETA that Harley announced the end of his partnership with Maria Chernyshova on Dec. 31, 2022 in an Instagram story (this was posted in the Australian news thread) and Maria has been competing in Senior singles in Australia.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Windsor has teamed up with Canadian-born Korean Hyejin Cho - their partnershp for South Korea was announced in late July: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/australian-skating-news.98953/page-57#post-6453133

ETA that Harley announced the end of his partnership with Maria Chernyshova on Dec. 31, 2022 in an Instagram story (this was posted in the Australian news thread) and Maria has been competing in Senior singles in Australia.

OK I’m totally behind on that, I remember I think I guess it was last year they were registered for a Grand Prix but then they were gone. Injury or something? That I never saw their names ever again, so yeah, I guess I kind of assumed they were no longer together.

 

[Sylvia]

OK I’m totally behind on that, I remember I think I guess it was last year they were registered for a Grand Prix but then they were gone. Injury or something?

He broke his ankle (edited to add that Harley posted about his surgery in Sept. 2022: https://www.instagram.com/p/CjAagJxJrCj/)

BTW, the first reviews of this documentary were posted in the Australian news thread last December when it premiered there (I created this thread after reading those initial posts): https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/australian-skating-news.98953/page-55#post-6354736

 

[Judy]

My issue is not that they broke up and he was found a new partner. My issue is that her isolation and unhappiness lead to Katya becoming an alcoholic, and yet Windsor didn’t learn anything from the past at all (and at that time he was already in his twenties, so definitely an adult). He found another Russian teenager and put her in exactly same situation. It wasn’t as if he stated ‘I am an adult and you are legally a child, let’s train in Russia because at least you can be with your family, you would have friends around you, speak the language and not be so isolated’. Nope, he again imported a child into Australia, hoping that it will turn out better this time. I was quite relieved when the partnership didn’t work out. When I heard that he paired up with a girl with South Korean background, I was hoping that they would train in South Korea, so that he would have an opportunity to experience the isolation Katya lived in. I though that would be an important learning experience for him. But…no such luck. They are training in Ontario.

Yes it’s 100% his fault.

 

[hanca]

Who could they have trained with in South Korea? There are no pairs coaches there.

ETA: Thanks to everyone who has shared their impressions so far (I don't have Netflix so can't watch but hope to someday).

Well, there were not that many pair coaches in Australia either and yet they trained in Australia rather than in Russia where there is plenty coaches to choose from. So my hope that they would train in South Korea wasn’t that far fetched, before I knew that she was Canadian born.

 

[Hedwig]

Learning after watching the docu that Harley follows and liked misogynistic a$$holes like Tate who think women are lesser beings who deserve to be punished and raped I cannot help but wonder how this attitude towards women contributed to Katya‘s ill being.

 

[MacMadame]

You also have to factor in that you can offer help but if a person is not yet ready to accept help either it won’t work.

Except it doesn't seem like anyone did offer to help. They all either weren't aware of the problem or didn't know what to do. The coaches kicked her out and only said "Ask Katya why" which is not remotely helpful. Why didn't they talk to people who could help with Katya's drinking? Or tell at least Harley and his family why?

I think the issue here is that Katya didn't really have a family or even close friends. The Windsors were nice to her but it's not like they invited her into the family and protected her like a daughter. They didn't have to do that of course, but if they had, I think it would have made a difference.

Conversely, if the coaches had been different in how they treated Katya -- maybe seeing her not just as a student who happened to be living in their house but as a daughter. Again, they were under no obligation to do that and it's not something that can be forced.

The bottom line is that she didn't really have the kind of support system you need to survive in elite sports.

 

[Sylvia]

He found another Russian teenager and put her in exactly same situation. It wasn’t as if he stated ‘I am an adult and you are legally a child, let’s train in Russia because at least you can be with your family, you would have friends around you, speak the language and not be so isolated’. Nope, he again imported a child into Australia, hoping that it will turn out better this time.

Well, there were not that many pair coaches in Australia either and yet they trained in Australia rather than in Russia where there is plenty coaches to choose from.

You seem to be forgetting that Chernyshova had to reside/train a certain amount of time in Australia in order to be able to apply for Australian citizenship. I recall C/W were training part-time in Russia before the war started.

I checked and Katya's Instagram account is still viewable : https://www.instagram.com/alexandrovskaya.k/

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I wonder if they ever considered going to Ashley Cain‘s parents in Texas for coaching. I mean they could’ve been around Ashley and Timothy and having Australian coaches and seem like really decent people. I wonder if that would’ve been more open and better environment for them than actually being outside of Sydney. Granted, there would still be the language barrier for Katya but I think Darlene and Peter would’ve been much better support system for her