"Harley & Katya" documentary

[Sylvia]

^^^ Doubtful. Harley had been skating with the Pachins since age 9 - Olympic Winter Institute of Australia's press release after Katya & Harley won 2017 Junior Worlds: https://www.owia.org/uploads/3/9/6/...a_win_junior_world_figure_skating_title_1.pdf

The Pachins have taught Windsor since he was a nine-year-old and found a partner for their young
charge in Moscow when all attempts at a local partnership failed. It was instant magic when Windsor
and Alexandrovskaya first teamed up in Sydney in January 2016 and began competing for Australia
mid last year.

(BTW, Peter Cain is Australian and Darlene is Canadian.)

 

[Judy]

Except it doesn't seem like anyone did offer to help. They all either weren't aware of the problem or didn't know what to do. The coaches kicked her out and only said "Ask Katya why" which is not remotely helpful. Why didn't they talk to people who could help with Katya's drinking? Or tell at least Harley and his family why?

I think the issue here is that Katya didn't really have a family or even close friends. The Windsors were nice to her but it's not like they invited her into the family and protected her like a daughter. They didn't have to do that of course, but if they had, I think it would have made a difference.

Conversely, if the coaches had been different in how they treated Katya -- maybe seeing her not just as a student who happened to be living in their house but as a daughter. Again, they were under no obligation to do that and it's not something that can be forced.

The bottom line is that she didn't really have the kind of support system you need to survive in elite sports.

Yes I 100% get that. I very strongly believe kids need to be more protected in elite sports. I just don’t believe that a very young person in his early 20’s deserves to be blamed for everything. We don’t need to drive another person to suicide .

 

[overedge]

I wonder if they ever considered going to Ashley Cain‘s parents in Texas for coaching. I mean they could’ve been around Ashley and Timothy and having Australian coaches and seem like really decent people. I wonder if that would’ve been more open and better environment for them than actually being outside of Sydney. Granted, there would still be the language barrier for Katya but I think Darlene and Peter would’ve been much better support system for her

They might not have been able to afford it. And it would be a long way away from their families and friends.

 

[kwanfan1818]

We keep forgetting about the residency requirements: they couldn't just live anywhere for her to meet the qualifications.

 

[airgelaal]

I think the situation would have been better if she knew the language. Or at least the time difference wouldn’t be so significant.
And, probably, it would have been better for Katya to scream and throw out her emotions, and then move on. But she drowned all her emotions in alcohol.
So, for me, a situation where a minor should be alone in another country without knowing the language is unacceptable

 

[MacMadame]

My issue is that her isolation and unhappiness lead to Katya becoming an alcoholic,

I don't think that's true. In the documentary, they talked about her and a friend downing a bottle of vodka that Katya was supposed to give to her coach. This was before she even knew that Harley and the Pachins even existed.

 

[moonvine]

We see how parents torment their kids in the US to get them into the NFL/NBA/NHL (watch Trophy Kids)

Where can I watch Trophy Kids? I can’t find it.

Also now that NIL is in effect, last I looked the highest earning athlete was a high school basketball player.
Yep, 7.5 million. Wonder if that results in less or more pressure.

Top 10 NIL Earners Include Bryce Young, Olivia Dunne And Three High School Ballers Making Absurd Money

The NIL world is still brand new, but the top ten earners are making major bank and the list may surprise you

www.outkick.com

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

They might not have been able to afford it. And it would be a long way away from their families and friends.

well, I brought it up because at the very end they went to go to Canada to train

 

[moonvine]

I was so impressed by Belinda Noonan. She was just like this is wrong and I’m having no more parts of such an organization. It’s not a thing that happens often.
Also yes it made it seem that the ISU change of age rule had something to do with this, when we know it didn’t. And they started out as juniors so that wouldn’t have made any difference.
As far as him competing for Korea and training in Canada that should be fine since she is Canadian born as far as communication, yes?

 

[hanca]

I don't think that's true. In the documentary, they talked about her and a friend downing a bottle of vodka that Katya was supposed to give to her coach. This was before she even knew that Harley and the Pachins even existed.

As most of teenagers, she would experiment with alcohol. But for the majority of the teenagers it doesn’t become a problem. To turn from experimenting with alcohol into being an alcoholic, one really has to be unhappy or stressed or self-medicating or trying to ‘escape’… with Katya, it is pretty clear what caused it. It didn’t happen just out of the blue.

 

[hanca]

You seem to be forgetting that Chernyshova had to reside/train a certain amount of time in Australia in order to be able to apply for Australian citizenship. I recall C/W were training part-time in Russia before the war started.

I checked and Katya's Instagram account is still viewable : https://www.instagram.com/alexandrovskaya.k/

you are right, I didn’t think about the residency requirement. However, I still feel that after the experience of seeing Katya struggling, Windsor could have chosen next partner who is either legally an adult, or someone with fluent English (if possible mothers tongue), or move to his new partner’s country and accept that they may not be able to represent Australia. Although it is also possible that Australia would forgive them the residency requirement. If they could forgive Katya the English test, the same way they could wave the residency requirement. What rubs me the wrong way is that he chose Chernysheva and she was in exactly the same situation. It is as if he didn’t learn anything.

 

[sus2850]

you are right, I didn’t think about the residency requirement. However, I still feel that after the experience of seeing Katya struggling, Windsor could have chosen next partner who is either legally an adult, or someone with fluent English (if possible mothers tongue), or move to his new partner’s country and accept that they may not be able to represent Australia. Although it is also possible that Australia would forgive them the residency requirement. If they could forgive Katya the English test, the same way they could wave the residency requirement. What rubs me the wrong way is that he chose Chernysheva and she was in exactly the same situation. It is as if he didn’t learn anything.

Not that I am a fan of Harley, I think he has a lot of character flaws, but he was living in Moscow in 2021 during the pandemic, he kept posting about being there and trying out. As Australia was very strict with the Covid rules, I think it could have been a while that he was away. And he probably speaks Russian now

 

[aussieSKATES]

I was so impressed by Belinda Noonan. She was just like this is wrong and I’m having no more parts of such an organization. It’s not a thing that happens often.
Also yes it made it seem that the ISU change of age rule had something to do with this, when we know it didn’t. And they started out as juniors so that wouldn’t have made any difference.
As far as him competing for Korea and training in Canada that should be fine since she is Canadian born as far as communication, yes?

We interviewed Cho Hye-jin & Steven Adcock in the mixed zone at the 2023 World Team Trophy, and she definitely has a North American accent. It will be interesting to see how quickly she and Windsor are fast-tracked (like her previous partnership with Adcock) in order to compete on the international circuit.

Should their pairing be successful, a medal at the next World Team Trophy in 18 months time is a distinct possibility.

 

[MacMadame]

As most of teenagers, she would experiment with alcohol. But for the majority of the teenagers it doesn’t become a problem. To turn from experimenting with alcohol into being an alcoholic, one really has to be unhappy or stressed or self-medicating or trying to ‘escape’… with Katya, it is pretty clear what caused it. It didn’t happen just out of the blue.

It started with the death of her father. That is extremely clear.

 

[Amy L]

It started with the death of her father. That is extremely clear.

The first incident with the bottle of alcohol was on the one-year anniversary of her father's death.

 

[MacMadame]

The first incident with the bottle of alcohol was on the one-year anniversary of her father's death.

Exactly. It obviously hit her very hard and she even talks about this in the documentary.

Also, it's not normal experimentation for a 15-year-old to drink a bottle of vodka. That is very disturbing. As someone with a lot of alcoholics/addicts in my family, I would have seen that as a total red flag and would have stepped in right then and would have been watching with an eagle eye for future behavior.

 

[taz'smum]

The ‘Harley & Katya’ doco on ABC IView & @netflix is nominated for an Emmy.

 

[overedge]

We interviewed Cho Hye-jin & Steven Adcock in the mixed zone at the 2023 World Team Trophy, and she definitely has a North American accent.

She was born in Edmonton and grew up there AFAIK. It would be more surprising if she didn't have a North American accent.

 

[aussieSKATES]

She was born in Edmonton and grew up there AFAIK. It would be more surprising if she didn't have a North American accent.

Korea is lucky to have her! We will follow Hje-jin and Harley's new partnership with interest.

 

[misskarne]

For me, the thing that has not been sufficiently addressed or even discussed, which should be, is the AOC, their distribution of funding, and the way the funding is so heavily tied to results from year to year for these tiny sports in Australia.

Perhaps much of what passed could have been helped by the AOC giving consistent funding. The fact that the AOC effectively punished them for Harley's ankle injury in 2018-2019 was horrendous. By then it was probably too late...but it could help future teams.

 

[Trillian]

For me, the thing that has not been sufficiently addressed or even discussed, which should be, is the AOC, their distribution of funding, and the way the funding is so heavily tied to results from year to year for these tiny sports in Australia.

Perhaps much of what passed could have been helped by the AOC giving consistent funding. The fact that the AOC effectively punished them for Harley's ankle injury in 2018-2019 was horrendous. By then it was probably too late...but it could help future teams.

One of my takeaways from the film was that that was one of the things Belinda Noonan was most upset about in terms of the institutional response, and I completely agree. Obviously it wasn’t the only issue, but the loss of funding clearly limited their options in terms of figuring out and having access to a healthier path forward.

 

[overedge]

For me, the thing that has not been sufficiently addressed or even discussed, which should be, is the AOC, their distribution of funding, and the way the funding is so heavily tied to results from year to year for these tiny sports in Australia.

Perhaps much of what passed could have been helped by the AOC giving consistent funding. The fact that the AOC effectively punished them for Harley's ankle injury in 2018-2019 was horrendous. By then it was probably too late...but it could help future teams.

Am I right in remembering that the Olympic Winter Sports Institute has also been criticized for its funding model?

 

[Bunny Hop]

Am I right in remembering that the Olympic Winter Sports Institute has also been criticized for its funding model?

Olympic sports funding in general focuses very much on results rather than building up sports so they will get results. This article is a couple of years old but this is the pertinent bit for me

But despite this longevity, the future success of Australia’s high performance model is not guaranteed. The decline of the past decade points partly to a demographic reality: as a nation of 25 million people, Australia’s ability to compete with nations like China (1.4 billion) and the United States (330 million) will always be reliant on disproportionately high funding levels. Following a decade and a half of funding stagnation, Australia’s medal tally at recent Olympics may well be a more accurate reflection of relative national ability than the highs of Sydney and Athens.

Niche sports, in a country where most of the focus is on men's sports which involve a ball (although women's football is slowly becoming more mainstream) or swimming, are always going to be stuck with whatever scraps are left over, so distributing it where they know there will be better results is probably the best spend for scare resources, sad as that might be for promising upcoming athletes without independent incomes.

 

[MacMadame]

distributing it where they know there will be better results is probably the best spend for scare resources,

Is it though? I know people think this is the best way to spend the money but have there been studies that demonstrate that or is it all intuition?

 

[Bunny Hop]

Is it though? I know people think this is the best way to spend the money but have there been studies that demonstrate that or is it all intuition?

I honestly don't know, but my understanding is that the money available is very, very small in global funding terms. Not enough to start and maintain a grass roots development program, for example.

 

[Trillian]

I honestly don't know, but my understanding is that the money available is very, very small in global funding terms. Not enought to start and maintain a grass roots development program, for example.

I wouldn’t be surprised if this is true, but I think the bigger issue was the funding being given and then yanked so quickly while the athletes were in a rough patch. This shows a lack of understanding that building an elite career is a long term process and there will inevitably be setbacks. In some cases, I would imagine that inconsistent or unreliable funding could be worse than no funding at all, in terms of being destabilizing for the athletes who may not be able to make long term plans as a result of not knowing whether a training situation that seems like a good fit this season will be financially feasible next season.

 

[MacMadame]

I honestly don't know, but my understanding is that the money available is very, very small in global funding terms. Not enought to start and maintain a grass roots development program, for example.

A grassroots development program uses a LOT of volunteers though. It shouldn't be that expensive to run.

I personally am a big believer in the funnel. Get as many skaters into the top of the funnel as you can and your chances of at least some of them making it out the other end to elite status goes up. I think until you have a reliable and wide-open funnel, everything else is a band-aid.

I also think that programs that rely on spotting "talent" and nurturing it and/or rewarding results tend to be capricious and also do not get the best results. As @Trillian said, it makes it hard to plan if you can't have a rough patch without losing funding. But also, people aren't necessarily the best at spotting talent and it's easy to miss talented skaters and to over-reward ones that have someone important behind them who keeps pushing how talented they are.

 

[Bunny Hop]

A grassroots development program uses a LOT of volunteers though.

And that's a problem right there. Won't say any more.

 

[Sylvia]

Korea is lucky to have her! We will follow Hje-jin and Harley's new partnership with interest.

@aussieSKATES as was posted in other threads here, the Cho/Windsor partnership, originally announced on July 28, has ended (Hye Jin Cho posted an Instagram story on Monday, Oct. 16 to say she is looking for a new partner to represent KOR).

Coach Andrew Evans posted this Instagram story message today (copied out below): https://www.instagram.com/stories/coachandrewevans/3216417449388780561/

"People asking about my recent Korean team breaking up. There was no drama or anything. Harley didn't like Canada and it was expensive for him to be here. He wasn't rude or anything ever. He was fine.. No more DMs please. Thank you!"

Harley's latest Instagram stories today, however...

 

[Trillian]

Harley's latest Instagram stories today, however...

What’s really silly is that I totally would’ve accepted “Harley didn’t like Canada and it was expensive” as a completely plausible and inoffensive explanation, and Harley himself is the one undermining that by implying that there’s more to the story. He seems to have a special knack for self-sabotage via social media.