Grand Prix De France 2023- Men SP “It’s Raining Men”

[SkateFanBerlin]

I know Yuma won the pcs but consider it's not high enough for me still

Kag PCS so over. Comparing him to another short guy - say, Uno - he`s not close. No extension, ordinary positions. I can`t see beauty in it. He does skate fast.

He`s not been at his Oly form for a long time. The score today wasn`t justified to me - reputation skating.

 

[tony]

Kag PCS so over. Comparing him to another short guy - say, Uno - he`s not close. No extension, ordinary positions. I can`t see beauty in it. He does skate fast.

He`s not been at his Oly form for a long time. The score today wasn`t justified to me - reputation skating.

Hilarious post of the day.

His skating skills, the actual technique behind what he's doing, is infinitely better than what Uno shows. And his technique is much better, too. I'm a hardcore Aymoz fan but now that the judges have put him in as a 9+ PCS skater, there's zero reason why Kagiyama isn't pulling 9.50 or so. Really, he's that good with his control of the blades and the flow and speed.

I don't get what you think was overscored for him, but would love to hear a detailed breakdown. You think his PCS was too high compared to the likes of... Malinin?

 

[Habs]

Who had Gogolev in the top 5 after the short?!

 

[Holy Headband]

Who had Gogolev in the top 5 after the short?!

I put him in my fantasy team on Anything GOEs. It's all coming together...

 

[caseyedwards]

Fall during step sequence is very eye of the beholder apparently

 

[jenny12]

Hilarious post of the day.

His skating skills, the actual technique behind what he's doing, is infinitely better than what Uno shows. And his technique is much better, too. I'm a hardcore Aymoz fan but now that the judges have put him in as a 9+ PCS skater, there's zero reason why Kagiyama isn't pulling 9.50 or so. Really, he's that good with his control of the blades and the flow and speed.

I don't get what you think was overscored for him, but would love to hear a detailed breakdown. You think his PCS was too high compared to the likes of... Malinin?

Thanks for this post Tony. It helped diffuse my irrational rage at what I just read.

 

[skatingguy]

Fall during step sequence is very eye of the beholder apparently

It depends on the time given to the technical panel as to when the step sequence began.

 

[thvu]

I put him in my fantasy team on Anything GOEs. It's all coming together...

Dreams can come true.

 

[Matryeshka]

I put him in my fantasy team on Anything GOEs. It's all coming together...

I did too!!!

 

[Citlali]

Who had Gogolev in the top 5 after the short?!

I'm here in Angers watching skating live for the first time ever and I didn't have him after his mediocre warm-up but he did deliver when it counted.

 

[Wyliefan]

I'm here in Angers watching skating live for the first time ever

That's great! Hope you're having a wonderful time!

 

[Citlali]

That's great! Hope you're having a wonderful time!

Thank you! I'm having the best time ever

 

[NinjaTurtles]

The factored GOE on the StSq with a Fall was ultimately fairly in the recommended range (if we call it a stumble), but Spain is maybe a little too cised for Ilia with that +2

It's so clear that PCS are used to rank the skaters on a given component (which said rankings don't feel too wrong here, Yuma is clearly 1st in everything except arguably Presentation) vs. provide granular feedback on where the skater falls on the 10.00 continuum of their blade mastery/quality of skating.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

Changed mind; no comment.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

Hilarious post of the day.

His skating skills, the actual technique behind what he's doing, is infinitely better than what Uno shows. And his technique is much better, too. I'm a hardcore Aymoz fan but now that the judges have put him in as a 9+ PCS skater, there's zero reason why Kagiyama isn't pulling 9.50 or so. Really, he's that good with his control of the blades and the flow and speed.

I don't get what you think was overscored for him, but would love to hear a detailed breakdown. You think his PCS was too high compared to the likes of... Malinin?

Well, you could provide a detail breakdown of how Kag`s technique is better than Uno`s. There are facts involved but a lot of it is what a viewer wants to see. I will just say Kag`s and Fa`s PCS today was basically the same. I don`t see what was so specisl about him today. Also, Kag did a young man program - loud boy music from beginning to end. Maybe hard in a short program to find time to contrast styles, but it should be possible to do something.

 

[mtnskater]

Ilia had me in total stitches!! Try to whip up the crowd and splat! His sheepish reaction was charming and adorable at the end. I’m glad he wasn’t mad and fuming. I really wonder what his dad said to him as he came off the ice??? Otherwise superb short program in the face of another superb skate by Adam. Enjoyed both of them immensely! I’m still smiling.

 

[kwanfan1818]

really wonder what his dad said to him as he came off the ice???

"The difference between 1st and 2nd is five grand, young whippersnapper."

 

[jenny12]

Well, you could provide a detail breakdown of how Kag`s technique is better than Uno`s. There are facts involved but a lot of it is what a viewer wants to see. I will just say Kag`s and Fa`s PCS today was basically the same. I don`t see what was so specisl about him today. Also, Kag did a young man program - loud boy music from beginning to end. Maybe hard in a short program to find time to contrast styles, but it should be possible to do something.

I’m by no means as well versed as Tony is in this but it’s pretty obvious Kagiyama’a technique is easily superior to Uno. Look at the squared hips, how he gets his power, etc. Also, the type of music skated to doesn’t have anything to do with technique. I’m an Uno fan but his shortcomings are pretty clear.

 

[Spikefan]

Ilia had me in total stitches!! Try to whip up the crowd and splat! His sheepish reaction was charming and adorable at the end. I’m glad he wasn’t mad and fuming. I really wonder what his dad said to him as he came off the ice??? Otherwise superb short program in the face of another superb skate by Adam. Enjoyed both of them immensely! I’m still smiling.

I also enjoyed it. Definitely still trying to get that right balance of engaging the audience but not losing focus. These are the competitions to work on that. Also, no one can get too upset if you fall and smile/laugh charmingly- see Janet Lynn.

 

[PRlady]

One great difference between skating and acting is that although the skaters do perform, they’re basically athletes with a veneer of acting. Meaning their real personalities come through when they’re not on the ice. So it’s rare to have the Hollywood syndrome of “he seemed so nice! Who knew he was a putz!” about (fill in the blanks with many names.)

I find both Ilia and Isabeau to be delightful teenagers with a healthy sense of fun. It’s nice to see.

 

[jlai]

I’m by no means as well versed as Tony is in this but it’s pretty obvious Kagiyama’a technique is easily superior to Uno. Look at the squared hips, how he gets his power, etc. Also, the type of music skated to doesn’t have anything to do with technique. I’m an Uno fan but his shortcomings are pretty clear.

I guess it comes down to whether one thinks skating skills or performance (along with things like line, stretch, etc) should drive pcs. (subjective)

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

I’m by no means as well versed as Tony is in this but it’s pretty obvious Kagiyama’a technique is easily superior to Uno. Look at the squared hips, how he gets his power, etc. Also, the type of music skated to doesn’t have anything to do with technique. I’m an Uno fan but his shortcomings are pretty clear.

Obvious to who? I`m not looking this up but how often does Uno skate a 3-3 in the short? We were also talking about PCS and how programs are constructed is definately relevent. It`s hard to evidence sophisticated with pounding rock music. Sophistication not relevant? Ask Kostner, his coach. At 20 yr old Kag should be able to express something more than this. The 97+ not justified.

 

[tony]

Obvious to who? I`m not looking this up but how often does Uno skate a 3-3 in the short? We were also talking about PCS and how programs are constructed is definately relevent. It`s hard to evidence sophisticated with pounding rock music. Sophistication not relevant? Ask Kostner, his coach. At 20 yr old Kag should be able to express something more than this. The 97+ not justified.

This is why I can't argue with people like you giving these comments, without people saying how mean I am.

There is a rulebook. People on FSU (the kind that have watched every competition for the past 30+ years in some cases) say some of the craziest stuff without ever having attempted opening the rulebook and understanding the sport they have such serious opinions about. It's really wild to me. Did you go into a classroom and give a presentation on something you didn't research at all with the expectations that you would get a good grade and/or be taken seriously?

What you are saying is that you don't think the 97 is earned because A) he did a 3+3 and B) you hated rock music, that's what I got from your post. Alright then. You don't need to move in a sophisticated manner or have lyrical, flowing music to match the highs and lows of the music or have a great performance and/or composition quality. He's 20 years old and has shown many different styles of music in his senior career.

Now I'm going to link you to some rules, first of all about PCS scoring and what goes into those three components, and then B, read the rules about achieving positive GOE and additional points for elements. His jump quality, the distance, the flow in and out, is second to none. The complexity and deep edges he has throughout the program and in the step sequence also count for something.

https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/sandp-handbooks-faq/31474-program-components-chart/file

https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/sandp-handbooks-faq/31475-composition-presentation-and-skating-skills-charts/file

https://isu.org/inside-isu/isu-communications/communications/31153-isu-communication-2558/file

And for what it's worth, Uno gets away with a 4F that has never ever been close to fully rotated, a quad loop that is also not fully rotated in most instances, a triple Axel that always has a wild lean mid jump, and programs that often show two-foot skating and turns or skating in one direction. Kagiyama has much more ease in his movements, throughout his entire body, and he picks up speed much easier. I think his posture is better, and I think his jump quality in general (the height, the technique, the flow in and especially out) is better, too.

Now- I ask again. Why is the 97 not justified with all of this material here for you to analyze?

 

[peibeck]

Watched ALL the events in a row, finishing with the guys. Adam would narrowly lead Ilia on my scoresheet, instead of vice versa. Kagiyama was brilliant today, and I've never been his biggest fan. It's wonderful to see him back to competing though, after a whole season off.

Britschgi was also a very pleasant surprise. Gogolev great jumps, everything else... meh.

Camden, please ditch this hideous program. Choreographically and musically it is a nightmare. Even if skated flawlessly I doubt it would get people out of their seats.

ETA: I would concur with @tony about Kagiyama's skating skills: Best since Patrick Chan. I love Uno, but it is because I think he is intrinsically so musical and his performance skills are magnificent, but that doesn't always translate to his blade work (or his cat like jump landings). I don't think Kagiyama is as good as a performer (yet) but his basic skating... heaven. He makes every move, in any direction, look soooooo very, very easy and with astonishing speed. And, as I stated above, I'm not an uber of him. But I also am not blind.

 

[ChelleC]

Obvious to who? I`m not looking this up but how often does Uno skate a 3-3 in the short? We were also talking about PCS and how programs are constructed is definately relevent. It`s hard to evidence sophisticated with pounding rock music. Sophistication not relevant? Ask Kostner, his coach. At 20 yr old Kag should be able to express something more than this. The 97+ not justified.

Mark Hanretty said in his commentary, that Kagiyama himself is calling this season a rebuilding season. He's not yet back at 100%, and that's fine. Sophisitication is subjective, like many other things in skating. This is the first time Kagiyama has skating to "pounding rock music" as you called it. He's already shown expression to other types of music.

 

[Wyliefan]

Camden, please ditch this hideous program. Choreographically and musically it is a nightmare. Even if skated flawlessly I doubt it would get people out of their seats.

Out of their seats? At this point if Camden skated a program flawlessly, I think everyone would drop dead.

 

[Hedwig]

Kag PCS so over. Comparing him to another short guy - say, Uno - he`s not close. No extension, ordinary positions. I can`t see beauty in it. He does skate fast.

He`s not been at his Oly form for a long time. The score today wasn`t justified to me - reputation skating.

How to say one has no clue about skating wo saying one has no clue about skating

 

[Hedwig]

I'm here in Angers watching skating live for the first time ever and I didn't have him after his mediocre warm-up but he did deliver when it counted.

oh the first competition is so special you will never forget it!

 

[millyskate]

I thought Adam and Kagiyama were brilliant
I find Malinin a bit underwhelming but you can't argue with those jumps. It was a fun watch.

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

I put him in my fantasy team on Anything GOEs. It's all coming together...

Anyone who fantasizes about Gogolev must visit a psychiatrist asap