2023 Grand Prix Final - Men SP: “The Quadruple Revolution”

[Holy Headband]

It's almost as if people forget the big fed PCS boost, or the TES boost to PCS. We all openly discuss how Plushenko didn't deserve the 9s he would get in PCS, as if it's a well-known joke.

I have talked to judges and heard first-hand how some don't know the rules. I got into an argument with a well-known US judge about the rules for under rotation. He insisted I was wrong about what the < and << meant, and what deductions judges are supposed to make. When presented with the ISU document proving I was right, he dismissed me and wouldn't discuss it further. He also claimed that technical panels call consistently, and that if the technical panel calls a jump rotated, or a take-off edge clean, then that's what happened.

There's the actual rules and guidelines that judges are supposed to follow, and then there's what the judges actually do. They're not the same thing.

This seems like a real problem to me. A lot of international judges are on the older side and haven't skated or coached competitively in decades, if they ever did. They tend to be stuck on whatever version of the rulebook they remember most vividly from their youth.

I don't think old people should be barred from judging, far from it. But I wonder what efforts the ISU makes to ensure judges with valid international certification are up to date on the current rulebook and are committed to enforcing it as opposed to using whatever tools are currently available to them to express outdated or unsubstantiated opinions. Do judges have to get re-certified every time there's a new code of points, or do they only have to go to a few seminars where the exams are less consequential? Does their performance/track record get evaluated periodically by external reviewers (i.e. judges not from their own federation)? Are national federations encouraged to get new judges certified?

Remember when the ISU used a clip of Trusova (I think) to illustrate skating that is worth a 6 in skating skills at some judging seminar, which got leaked on Twitter? And then she proceeded to get, what was it, 8 or 8.5+ in SS in every competition that season? There's quite possibly a major disconnect between how the ISU tells judges to apply the rules behind closed doors and what they actually do with them, but if so, what is the ISU doing to bring actual judging and the rulebook into alignment?

I suspect they may be giving judges free rein because it's difficult and expensive to train a judge and send them to competitions, and the ISU doesn't want national federations to stop investing in developing/supporting judges. But surely there has to be a middle ground between appeasing federations and not doing any quality control.

 

[Lanie]

Having been in a position during volunteering to sit with the judging panel, they just press a button and keep them in a PCS corridor. I think it's really still the mentality of using it as 6.0 was used, honestly.

 

[skatfan]

So my assertion that doing the 4-axel in the SP here was the perfect time for Ilia to throw it held up. Not his best short, but I do think for the average fan, his skating looks up to standard enough (he's not a 2017 Boyang Jin) with good spins and footwork that he'll continue to get very good PCS. If they start going after his skating skills, then I want Shoma's pre-rotation and full blade "toe" takeoffs addressed as well.

 

[Lana K]

Looks like the same red matador jacket to me. So is the black braiding different?

It was a shirt at NHK, rather than an open jacket! And the red stripes on the pants are new. So, unless Ilia has done another competition since then, it was a new outfit to me.

 

[her grace]

If they start going after his skating skills, then I want Shoma's pre-rotation and full blade "toe" takeoffs addressed as well.

Yes, please.

 

[Frau Muller]

It was a shirt at NHK, rather than an open jacket! And the red stripes on the pants are new. So, unless Ilia has done another competition since then, it was a new outfit to me.

Thx. I just remembered the red jacket with black braiding from Sk America on.

 

[skatingguy]

It was a shirt at NHK, rather than an open jacket! And the red stripes on the pants are new. So, unless Ilia has done another competition since then, it was a new outfit to me.

The first one was Japan Open, so he's definitely done more competitions since then, but this the first one with this outfit.

 

[Lacey]

I adore Ilia. And I sort of think costumes don't or shouldn't matter. But, does anyone else agree that this new one struck me as old-fashioned in the tightness of the jacket, as if a more free and loose top might have made him seem more relaxed and at ease in his jumps?

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I am going through all of the posts here and trying to see if anyone has discussed. Why was it judge number six gave his quad axle a -5. What? Can this judge seriously be removed from the competition? So this judge graded that element as a fall? Where is the judge from?

 

[thvu]

I am going through all of the posts here and trying to see if anyone has discussed. Why was it judge number six gave his quad axle a -5. What? Can this judge seriously be removed from the competition? So this judge graded that element as a fall? Where is the judge from?

The judge may have been under the false impression that it was an illegal element and not meeting requirements, which would be a -5.

 

[Holy Headband]

I am going through all of the posts here and trying to see if anyone has discussed. Why was it judge number six gave his quad axle a -5. What? Can this judge seriously be removed from the competition? So this judge graded that element as a fall? Where is the judge from?

The most obvious explanation is that the judge believed the 4A could not be performed as a solo jump in the short and assigned the appropriate GOE for an invalid element. It's embarrassing for them and the ISU that they made this error when Malinin has been drilling quad axels in practice in Beijing and explicitly checked in with the judges (or was it the technical panel?) to make sure there would be no problem with his layout, which should have prompted everyone on the panel to refresh their knowledge of the rules, but it's not a conspiracy and that particular grade was dropped by the algorithm, so it had basically no effect on his score. The blind outrage about this (more on Twitter than here) has been a little excessive IMO...

 

[kwanfan1818]

It would be hard for the ISU to sanction the judge when their software didn't score the 4A properly.

 

[thvu]

You're one of the few posters here, at this point, whose opinion I take at face value because I know you attend competitions in person routinely and like to sit behind the panel and sneak a peek at what they're doing or not doing.

I'm not disregarding the issues with the scores given, but I also think some FSUers are relying too much on whatever reputations skaters get as they move from junior to senior without seeing them skate in person and then choose to tune out completely the observations from those in the arena who have seen these skaters in person more than once over the course of a few years.

Isabeau gets slammed for her super-slow jump entry, Lindsay gets slammed for URs, Ilia gets slammed for his poor PCS, and yet all three of those skaters have made obvious, visible efforts to improve those weaknesses and yet, the armchair judges are wedded to the skaters' reputations as immutable fact. It's annoying.

I get that sentiment, that skaters get judged by their past reputations. In this case, though, I don't think that's what @tony was doing. He was making a relative comparison, one I agree with. Ilia has made a lot of improvements in a short time (and so has Levito), but to me, He's gone from the 7s in PCS to 8s. Kagiyama to me should be solidly in the 9s, and should have at least 5 points on Malinin in PCS.

Now, I have yet to see Kagiyma live, but his skating skills and power are so evident even through the screen. The first time I saw his step sequence from Rain in Your Black Eyes, I literally teared up. It was so beautiful and masterful. The skaters in the field that could do that step sequence today can be counted on one hand, and Ilia isn't one of them.

 

[skatingguy]

I am going through all of the posts here and trying to see if anyone has discussed. Why was it judge number six gave his quad axle a -5. What? Can this judge seriously be removed from the competition? So this judge graded that element as a fall? Where is the judge from?

The judge may have been under the false impression that it was an illegal element and not meeting requirements, which would be a -5.

The most obvious explanation is that the judge believed the 4A could not be performed as a solo jump in the short and assigned the appropriate GOE for an invalid element. It's embarrassing for them and the ISU that they made this error when Malinin has been drilling quad axels in practice in Beijing and explicitly checked in with the judges (or was it the technical panel?) to make sure there would be no problem with his layout, which should have prompted everyone on the panel to refresh their knowledge of the rules, but it's not a conspiracy and that particular grade was dropped by the algorithm, so it had basically no effect on his score. The blind outrage about this (more on Twitter than here) has been a little excessive IMO...

It would be hard for the ISU to sanction the judge when their software didn't score the 4A properly.

I think it's likely that the judge in question entered the correct -5 when the element was marked as invalid, and then didn't realize that the element was changed to a valid element. The IJS software is going to have to be updated to accommodate the possibility of skaters doing multiple Axel jumps in the short program.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

The judge may have been under the false impression that it was an illegal element and not meeting requirements, which would be a -5.

well, why is it not fixed?

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

It would be hard for the ISU to sanction the judge when their software didn't score the 4A properly.

ANL would not have made that mistake, and I would also be passing out candy canes

 

[Rukia]

Finally got to watch, and I hope people appreciate how lucky they are to get to watch a skater like Yuma Kagiyama. Watch his blades during the fw. Just incredible.

Also complaining about Ilia's pcs doesn't mean people are saying he's a bad skater. Ilia has good skating skills and decent presentation. The problem is he's up against a group of skaters here that range from fantastic to probably the best ever skating skills and really amazing presentation, so it does look rougher in comparison. But like even he knows that and is trying to improve. At any rate this was a fab competition and I think I love every one of these skaters for different reasons.

 

[Spikefan]

We are truly blessed with this final men’s line-up so no complaints from me.

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

Boys

This is one event that must be watched live because the perception of the speed and the ice coverage might be wrong on the TV, and here it's the main thing that differentiating the performances.

Watching Uno and Kagiyama back to back, I will say - I like Shomochka more. Kagiyama might be faster, although it wasn't clear from this particular performance, but that aside - Uno's movement and elements are just better. It's not just the jump landings, but the spins as well, and particularly the steps and the transitional moves, the quality of movement from Uno is a different level. Not a fan of this music, I thought it could have had much less annoying cuts, but once I manage to overcome the annoyance, the program is considerably more nuanced too.

Kevin really appeared to be from a different competition, didn't he? Even though this was the best he skated for some time, and his steps sequence and transitions are just fantastic, he kind of pales in comparison to the rest of the field. Glad to see him kind of leveling the field, don't have a sensible explanation to his PCS marks. He's good, but that's just laughable.

I will forget Miura exists in about 5...4...3... but for now I enjoyed him! Loved his steps sequence more than Kagiyama's, nice interpretation of the darker music; but everything about that skate screamed "number 3!" Just not the same level of polish. He's still very good, though, and I don't mind seeing him in the last group at the worlds.

Adam: there's probably some rule about PCS marks, right? because if there's not, and there's nothing about his skating that can't be conveyed by through the TV, him being so low on the second mark is just criminal. I'm developing a strong boycrash on him, there's something about the quality of his skating and movement that is just absolutely perfect. The Japanese boys might be softer in the knee, but he is the over all best if factoring the posture, the hand movements and the extension. Lutz-shmutz, who cares. I am baffled at his placement, one element off - that was still better than the marks indicate.

And finally Malinin... I don't dislike him, but when he is skating with the 5 guys, that is just... funny. It's kind of circus on ice. I'm not knowledgeable enough to pinpoint exactly what the problem is, because he obviously has very good technique, and everything about his skating is not awful. But en total that looks just like something straight out of "Blades of Glory". I'm sure there's a better way to highlight his amazing jumping skills than through Malaguena, for real. I find it fair for him to lead, 4a and all, but it doesn't feel like he's the best skater in the world right now. Really wish he's going to develop much more in the upcoming season to back up his unique jumps with better quality of over all skating (and of course, choreography).

 

[Hedwig]

what a great competition from start to finish. Even Adam with his mistake - he still skated his hearts out (plural intended, he has to have several) after that - that was so enjoyable - all six skaters in their own right were brillian.

 

[leilaofpaper]

Adam would have been third in the short at last years GPF - just for comparison. What an amazing event.

 

[YukiNieve]

I asked my Twitter (X) followers and one sent this to me (from the 2009-2010 rule book).
Axel jumps were allowed as solo jump even back then but the solo jump had to be followed by a connecting step or other moves, which she thinks make it difficult to jump 3A as a solo jump.

 

[Private Citizen]

YukiNieve beat me to it, but the solo jump used to require footwork or connecting moves leading directly into the jump. Once upon a time the judges were strict about deducting for lack of connecting moves into the jump. 3A+2T was probably easier than proper connecting steps into a 3A.

I had speculated last season whether Malinin might try the 4A for the short program solo jump, along with 4Lz+3T and 3A, to build up a large, potentially insurmountable lead. Other guys have upped their content since then, of course.

So I guess I’ve slept on the rules for 13 years

You may have been thinking all the way back to 1989-90, when several of the top guys did 3A in combination and 3A from connecting steps along with 2A (required then) in their short programs. The ISU changed the rule for 1990-91 to require the jump from connecting steps to be different than either jump in combination or the double axel. This didn't technically stop the possibility of doing 3A from steps, but I believe all the top men switched to doing 3A combinations (almost always 3A+2T) and then usually 3Lz (or 3F) from steps. No one, I believe, chose the route of doing a 3A from steps and a different triple-triple combination. Had COP been in place, I suspect some might have given that 3A+3T was rare and initially done only by Petrenko, IIRC.

 

[Jarrett]

If people are going to keep harping on pcs I’m going to keep harping how boring Shoma is and has always been. He is probably the best boring skater I have ever seen. Just no emotion. Zero. People said Tara was a robot but she wasn’t ever one. Shoma is a full on ai bot. Yuma is barely any better at least today. Very paint by numbers.

The only two with star quality were the French skaters and then Ilia.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Tara was a robot

?????

she was full of energy and hyper and quite energetic… always smiling. Robot? No she always showed her emotion in programs as well even as soon as she finished them.

 

[VALuvsMKwan]

?????

she was full of energy and hyper and quite energetic… always smiling. Robot? No she always showed her emotion in programs as well even as soon as she finished them.

The body snatchers screech in Kiss and Cry?

 

[Wyliefan]

Winning the Olympics is a once-in-a-lifetime moment (except for the rare birds who win two or three times). Screeching is fully appropriate.

 

[YukiNieve]

The judge may have been under the false impression that it was an illegal element and not meeting requirements, which would be a -5.

This is interesting. Can you tell me which document says GOE should be -5 when the element is invalid?

ETA I agree all the skaters in this group are extraordinary in their own way!

 

[genevieve]

What a fantastic group of men!

Aymoz: Beautiful skate, that sparkly blouse is definitely a thing

Uno: This is one of my favorite SPs this year, and this was a fantastic performance. The costume makes no sense, but why not.

Kagiyama: I know Yuma's skillz are off the charts and way, way better than Shoma's, but this program fell flat coming right after Uno's.

Miura: I always forget about Miura and am always pleasantly surprised. He's still baking, but I liked this SP lots

Malinin: That 4A Great strategy for the season to take it out for the GP and just casually drop it back in at the GPF. His performance is just just ok and that Mike Pike Tornado will never not look like an error, but it is great to see Ilia so focused for the whole program. That costume with the short jacket make his lanky legs look even longer.

Siao Him Fa: Adam I spoiled myself and knew something major had happened, but damn. It will be interesting to see what happens with the FS.

 

[MacMadame]

Lol - we all freaked out and had a rulebook fight because the computer didn't know what it had encountered with that 4A! That's so on brand for the IJS.

Mr. Mac and I had the same fight while we were watching. (I won.)