2023 Grand Prix Final - Men SP: “The Quadruple Revolution”

[Spikefan]

That costume with the short jacket make his lanky legs look even longer.

I thought he got a new costume because he outgrew the last one but it’s likely just your impression.

 

[~tapdancer~]

Somehow, the judges in the arena never see it the way the armchair judges at home do. So very odd.

If you want to complain about presentation/interpretation being less than, sure, I might give you that, but this PCS argument is always about the skating skills part of it and I'm just gonna posit the theory that perhaps his skating skills are quite good seeing as no one else in the world can land a 4a.

Great answer! I was shocked to see someone would say his skating skills are not in the same ballpark? I totally disagree. And he is young, he will only get better. And that is saying something, cause he's pretty darn good right now. Plus he has that "it" factor, imo.

 

[thvu]

This is interesting. Can you tell me which document says GOE should be -5 when the element is invalid?

https://www.isu.org/inside-isu/isu-communications/communications/31153-isu-communication-2558/file

Page 9, it's the first thing on the page.

 

[YukiNieve]

Thank you!!
I am so much impressed by those of you who can keep track of all these communications.

Page 9, it's the first thing on the page.

 

[genevieve]

I thought he got a new costume because he outgrew the last one but it’s likely just your impression.

I mean, it could be both.

Ilia gives me such Kevin Reynolds vibes because they are both all leg.

 

[Hedwig]

Great answer! I was shocked to see someone would say his skating skills are not in the same ballpark? I totally disagree. And he is young, he will only get better. And that is saying something, cause he's pretty darn good right now. Plus he has that "it" factor, imo.

But jumps are not skating skills. What is so hard about that to understand? Of course you have to be steady on your feet to generate the power and speed for a jump but this has nothing to do with the criteria for skating skills.

https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/sandp-handbooks-faq/31475-composition-presentation-and-skating-skills-charts/file

I love Ilia since he was a junior but compared to Kagiyama for instance he has a long way to go before he has effortless glide on deep edges or good clarity on turns. And it factor is not a factor in skating skills.

 

[Holy Headband]

It factor usually means "he's American and so am I" on this board.

 

[Karen-W]

It factor usually means "he's American and so am I" on this board.

Or, they're Canadian and so am I... or they're coached by Karine Arribert and I'm French too!

 

[kwanette]

But jumps are not skating skills. What is so hard about that to understand? Of course you have to be steady on your feet to generate the power and speed for a jump but this has nothing to do with the criteria for skating skills.

https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/sandp-handbooks-faq/31475-composition-presentation-and-skating-skills-charts/file

I love Ilia since he was a junior but compared to Kagiyama for instance he has a long way to go before he has effortless glide on deep edges or good clarity on turns. And it factor is not a factor in skating skills.

. "And it factor is not a factor in skating skills." No.."spark" is..at least since Nagano..

 

[kwanette]

It factor usually means "he's American and so am I" on this board.

My favorite skater has the "it" factor..He is Japanese..and I am an American...also..see Daisuke Takahashi..

 

[Rukia]

I mean the thing about "it" factor is that it means nothing. Someone here could say I think skater A has "it" and I may look at skater A and think yeah if "it" is trash skating, but what they really mean is they think they are cute or have nice costumes or good music or whatever. It's just vibes which is fine, but it doesn't mean they are great skaters (this comment is not about Ilia but just in general).

 

[kwanette]

I mean the thing about "it" factor is that it means nothing. Someone here could say I think skater A has "it" and I may look at skater A and think yeah if "it" is trash skating, but what they really mean is they think they are cute or have nice costumes or good music or whatever. It's just vibes which is fine, but it doesn't mean they are great skaters (this comment is not about Ilia but just in general).

One can be lower down the food chain and have the "IT" factor..I could name a few OGMs w no it factor. Kurt Browning had the IT factor and no Olympic medal.

 

[her grace]

I mean the thing about "it" factor is that it means nothing. Someone here could say I think skater A has "it" and I may look at skater A and think yeah if "it" is trash skating, but what they really mean is they think they are cute or have nice costumes or good music or whatever. It's just vibes which is fine, but it doesn't mean they are great skaters (this comment is not about Ilia but just in general).

The "it" factor is definitely subjective. But if judge thinks a skater has the "it" factor, they could be awarded in the presentation component. One of the subpoints of presentation is "Expressiveness and Projection," which is defined in part as:

Confident presentation of one's body and energy to communicate a feeling.
Ability to capture the viewer, arouse emotions.

 

[MacMadame]

I mean the thing about "it" factor is that it means nothing. Someone here could say I think skater A has "it" and I may look at skater A and think yeah if "it" is trash skating, but what they really mean is they think they are cute or have nice costumes or good music or whatever. It's just vibes which is fine, but it doesn't mean they are great skaters (this comment is not about Ilia but just in general).

Generally, the "it" factor is about charisma. Sure, it's subjective. But if lots of people think a particular skater has it, then it's not just that the skater has nice costumes or you like their music this season. That's more when only 1 or 2 people think and the consensus is that they are nuts.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

Also complaining about Ilia's pcs doesn't mean people are saying he's a bad skater. Ilia has good skating skills and decent presentation. The problem is he's up against a group of skaters here that range from fantastic to probably the best ever skating skills and really amazing presentation, so it does look rougher in comparison. But like even he knows that and is trying to improve. At any rate this was a fab competition and I think I love every one of these skaters for different reasons.

Right, @tony is saying that Ilia should be in the 8s, which is fair and a very good PCS score, it's just that his competitors are outstanding and belong in the 9s. If tony was saying that Ilia deserves 4s, that would be wild, but he's not. Ilia's skating skills are very good, but they are not outstanding, so he should be lower than people who have outstanding skating skills. The judges should differentiate between very good and outstanding, but they often don't.

 

[tony]

Right, @tony is saying that Ilia should be in the 8s, which is fair and a very good PCS score, it's just that his competitors are outstanding and belong in the 9s. If tony was saying that Ilia deserves 4s, that would be wild, but he's not. Ilia's skating skills are very good, but they are not outstanding, so he should be lower than people who have outstanding skating skills. The judges should differentiate between very good and outstanding, but they often don't.

I still remember the arguments long-time skating fans were giving how Patrick Chan's skating skills mark should be dropped down to the 4's or 5's or something outlandish because he 'fell two times' or made big mistakes, like the 2013 Worlds LP.

Ilia is just simply not outstanding in any of the criteria yet in my own opinion, for the reasons I mentioned up above. When it comes to skating skills, he's very good, absolutely. But he's not showing a tremendous amount of turning in his non-jumping/spinning direction, he doesn't gain and maintain speed throughout changes of edges and direction, and I don't think he shows a complete mastery of his body control throughout said skating skill work. 8.00 or 8.25 is where I'd likely have him. That's not going to change overnight and it's really not going to change from program to program. What I really like to see are clean edges that really hit that sweet 'crunch' sound spot of the blade and manage to maintain or even build speed. He doesn't have that ability, and he seems very well-aware that it's a place where he's lacking.

Composition and presentation can be more varied for the skaters in my opinion. I think the composition of his short program, for example, is so much better than for his free skate-- and I guess I can say the presentation is too. And the thing is, someone seems to every time come in and say something like 'well when you are doing all those quads, you have to prepare for them and focus and not be so into the program' or whatever else. That's so false. We've seen other skaters near the top that are throwing off multiple quads of their own and there's not such a dead space through the program.

So for the composition of Ilia's short, I'd say the movements much more capture the musical phrase and form, and I think the 'composition' in general flows much more as well as the elements connecting better. Even with the better SP choreography, he still doesn't move with a complete ease or a comfort. Again here, not excellent or outstanding, but I think for the short very good is fair in the same 8.00-8.25 range. The free skate is just a different story. He is showing better movements than in the past but the program really doesn't have anything major in terms of choreography until the very end, and that a program does not make. I'd actually be comfortable scoring it in the low/mid 7's as it is now, which won't happen but I'll gladly listen to why I'm not fair using the ISU criteria.

As far as presentation goes, I think it's long-been established that the big elements matched with the audience excitement really help to propel this score and by extension, the other two scores as well. I don't see a ton of variety and contrast to the first 3/4 of his free skate, and I don't really see any musical sensitivity at all. When there's a lack of choreography, there's not much to hit in terms of the 'timing' aspect. Projection-- well, I guess that's what saves him here but I don't even think he skates outwards so much as just being confident with the quads and rattling them off. If the choreo sequence makes the entire basis of the energy and projection a skater has, well then I think that's a problem.

So, for me I'd have his short program components probably averaging just around 8 or 8.25 (40 to 41) when all is said and done, but I'd have zero issue with the free skate components dropping him into the mid 7's overall. It's never going to happen, but I just explained why I personally think it should.

 

[Miezekatze]

Generally, the "it" factor is about charisma. Sure, it's subjective. But if lots of people think a particular skater has it, then it's not just that the skater has nice costumes or you like their music this season. That's more when only 1 or 2 people think and the consensus is that they are nuts.

Like If someone said Nika Egadze has the IT factor...